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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: Dustin71]
#760275
07/30/10 05:53 AM
07/30/10 05:53 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Yes to high 11s. Let’s consider Mr.6Pack Bob Ks overall build: * 440 bored .060 over (453ci.) * Mr. SixPack Camshaft * Six Pack induction (975cfm actual) * HP exhaust manifolds * Factory dual point distributor * Stock 906 heads with stock valve sizes (no porting allowed). * Milled heads - deck height of .027 gives him exactly 11:1 compression. * Carter mechanical pump (M6903) * Stock 12" Torque converter * Duel exhaust with H-pipe and Dynomax Ultra Flo mufflers * Reproduction bias-ply red line tires on stock 15-inch wheels. It may be better now, but I read that Bob’s best E.T. to date was 12.09 seconds in the quarter @ 114 mph. I also read a report that an A12 Road Runner with a Bob built engine ran 11.76 seconds @ 116.45 mph. I have to chuckle to myself when I see cars modified with big aftermarket cams, high stall torque converters, and drag slicks not running any quicker than Bob’s tuned stock A12 cars. Bob told me on the phone that you can throw a big cam in to an engine and turn big numbers on a dyno, but will that engine get your car down the track?  MR.6PACK Racing Engines - link
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#760279
07/31/10 05:57 PM
07/31/10 05:57 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
That would mean the above engine...basically stock except for the cam made around 425hp to the rear wheels. I'd be willing to bet that there are some shanannagins going on w/ that motor and that your "basic" guy couldn't match that tune. I find it really hard to belive you can run those numbers w/ NO port work. If so every muscle car geek would be driving a 12.o second car. I'll bet the car has a roller cam, light weight H-beams, pistons and a host of high dollar parts.
As the story goes, Bob Karakashian volunteered his A12 Super Bee to the PURE STOCK MUSCLE CAR DRAG RACE (PSMCDR) tech inspection and has been "Certified Stock".
If any one would like to know what PSMCDR "Certified Stock" entails, they can click on THIS LINK
If any one would like to read up on PSMCDR official rules, they can click on THIS LINK
From what I understand PSMCDR rules are much more tough than that of Factory Appearing Stock Tire (FAST) racing where FAST rules allow for internal engine "shenanigans" as long as the engine appears stock from the outside.
The bigger is better hot rod crowd has a hard to believing that a well tuned "pure stock" 440+6 engine can run low 12s to high 11s, but be that what it may, Bob Karakashian's A12 Super Bee is the real deal and he does it pure stock.
Read more here:Bob “Mr. Six Pack” Karakashian’s Super Bee -link
Pure Stock is the only way to rock! 
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: CompSyn]
#760280
08/07/10 11:41 AM
08/07/10 11:41 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,318
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,318
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
That would mean the above engine...basically stock except for the cam made around 425hp to the rear wheels. I'd be willing to bet that there are some shanannagins going on w/ that motor and that your "basic" guy couldn't match that tune. I find it really hard to belive you can run those numbers w/ NO port work. If so every muscle car geek would be driving a 12.o second car. I'll bet the car has a roller cam, light weight H-beams, pistons and a host of high dollar parts.
As the story goes, Bob Karakashian volunteered his A12 Super Bee to the PURE STOCK MUSCLE CAR DRAG RACE (PSMCDR) tech inspection and has been "Certified Stock".
If any one would like to know what PSMCDR "Certified Stock" entails, they can click on THIS LINK
If any one would like to read up on PSMCDR official rules, they can click on THIS LINK
From what I understand PSMCDR rules are much more tough than that of Factory Appearing Stock Tire (FAST) racing where FAST rules allow for internal engine "shenanigans" as long as the engine appears stock from the outside.
The bigger is better hot rod crowd has a hard to believing that a well tuned "pure stock" 440+6 engine can run low 12s to high 11s, but be that what it may, Bob Karakashian's A12 Super Bee is the real deal and he does it pure stock.
Read more here:Bob “Mr. Six Pack” Karakashian’s Super Bee -link
Pure Stock is the only way to rock!
Bob and others racing at this level are true racing thoroughbreds. They are rule and rule loop hole experts. Don't be confused with what I'm saying, as this is a compliment. What the rules don't say is a lot, and how and what measurements are taken for certification is key as well.
If you take a box of stock parts, put it together per the blueprint spec.s, tune it very well, it will make 400 hp, and push a typical B body to 110 to 111 mph, and depending on suspension, to about 12.4 to 12.3 et. That is how it has been forever. With arguably tighter rules today, they are now at 440 hp, 115 mph, and 12.0s. Don't confuse what they are doing as just stock blueprinted stuff.
Anyways, what pistons are these guys using: originals?, 20 year old after market replacement stuff?, or....?
Last edited by BSB67; 08/08/10 09:58 PM.
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#760282
08/08/10 11:43 PM
08/08/10 11:43 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,863
MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,863
MI, usa
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Quote:
That would mean the above engine...basically stock except for the cam made around 425hp to the rear wheels. I'd be willing to bet that there are some shanannagins going on w/ that motor and that your "basic" guy couldn't match that tune. I find it really hard to belive you can run those numbers w/ NO port work. If so every muscle car geek would be driving a 12.o second car. I'll bet the car has a roller cam, light weight H-beams, pistons and a host of high dollar parts.
I've seen Bobs Super Bee motor with the valve covers off. It has stamped rockers which would be a 1st with a roller cam. Trick,yes. Fancy after market stuff,no. I know a few of the pure stock guys and I can say that the internals have to appear pretty stock to pass tech. That being said I agree the average guy isn't going to duplicate Bobs results.
Doug
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: dvw]
#760283
08/09/10 01:39 AM
08/09/10 01:39 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
Bob and others racing at this level are true racing thoroughbreds. They are rule and rule loop hole experts. Don't be confused with what I'm saying, as this is a compliment. What the rules don't say is a lot, and how and what measurements are taken for certification is key as well.
If you take a box of stock parts, put it together per the blueprint spec.s, tune it very well, it will make 400 hp, and push a typical B body to 110 to 111 mph, and depending on suspension, to about 12.4 to 12.3 et. That is how it has been forever. With arguably tighter rules today, they are now at 440 hp, 115 mph, and 12.0s. Don't confuse what they are doing as just stock blueprinted stuff.
Not confused. Bob Karakashian is a modern day racing legend who took lessons from THE racing legend, Tom Hoover - A.K.A The Father Of The Hemi and Ramchargers fame. These guys KNOW the “tricks” to make these cars run. However, the “tricks” they are NOT using: ported heads, roller cam, light weight H-beams, pistons and a host of high dollar parts.
I’ve already provided numerous information links so I’ll include some actual quotes from the links.
Quote:
“Karakashian learned well from his mentor Tom Hoover. In doing so, he also accepted Hoover’s philosophy of freely sharing information. Speed “secrets” are not kept close to the vest, but openly shared with those willing to listen and learn. Karakashian’s first rule governing 440 Six Pack performance is not to over-cam. Most enthusiasts love to hear the rump-rump of a long duration cam with lots of overlap. He has found this to be counterproductive when running in a pure stock class with stock exhaust manifolds. Karakashian’s suggestion is to use a factory restoration cam. He has also experimented with several custom grinds that match the pure stock rules. He has installed a fairly conservative grind cam in his Six Pack Super Bee. He also suggests running the cam in the factory position or slightly retarded. Advancing the cam will add to the 440’s already powerful low-end torque. Karakashian suggests a 0 or –2 degree setting when installing the cam.” Cited:Bob Karakashian - Mr. Six Pack - Part Two- link
So I’ll agree with you that the average joe racer isn’t going to put his stock 440 into the 11 second bracket without the 70-plus years of combined “Mopar” drag racing experience shared between Karakashian and Hoover. The flip side to that is Mr. Karakashian "freely shares" information about these speed tricks and no purchase necessary. However, if you're building a stock 440, I'd highly recommend buying his custom cam grind.
Quote:
"I will tell everyone else on this thread what kinda guy Bob is. First off I'm a decent mechanic but not nearly as knowledgeable as Bob and I would bet not to many of you are either or have the track time and experience. And I'm not talking about sitting on a stupid computer, internet racing and talking about what you can or what you have done, I'm talking about spending countless hours and years some more than some of your ages at a dragstip trying different combination's and constantly trying to improve. When I met Bob a few years ago I had only known him for maybe 3 months tops and I decided to remove my headers and big cam and install one of his cams thanks to Paul who I had just met at a local track. Anyways I purchased one of his cams and after many phone conversations at home and at his work " oh and I'm sure he get's plenty from many of you because Ive seen his number posted here before. Well anyways I was having problems with the install and other issues due to a bad timing gear set, well I wasn't able to fix the problem so Bob decided that he would come to my house and help me out and I live about 50 miles from his house. Well after about 4 hours and burning the midnight oil we were done. Oh ya and he wouldn't even except any money I had to buy him and his wife a gift certificate for dinner. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that if a stupid cam spec makes you not want to buy one of his cams "don't buy it" it's probably not for you anyway. And as far as the so called idiots who don't know how to degree a cam in or spec one out, I guess some people are better at some things than others. I personally suck at grammar as you can tell from this post but I'm not really concerned because it's going to be my last one anyways." Cited: Moparts.com - Hillbilly Kidd
Quote:
Anyways, what pistons are these guys using: originals?, 20 year old after market replacement stuff?, or....?
Again, a quote from the link I’ve already provided:
Quote:
“Engine: Must be factory correct for the year, model, and horsepower claimed. Dealer installed engines and dealer performed engine modifications are not allowed. Casting numbers must be correct for the year and horsepower claimed including intake manifold, heads, and exhaust manifolds. Modifications are prohibited. Blocks do not have to be "numbers-matching," but they must be the correct displacement. Overbores up to .070" are allowed. Stock cranks only. NO strokers! Random P&G checks are possible. No lightweight cranks, connecting rods, or pistons allowed. Pistons must be of the original design for the year and horsepower claimed. Replacement forged pistons are allowed as long as they do not increase compression. Torque straps are allowed. No after-market blocks allowed.” Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race - RULES
You know it’s a shame that the first thing a lot of folks do is throw in a big lobe aftermarket camshaft, headers, intake and other numerous modifications when much of what they are looking for is right under their nose in “pure stock” form. Heck, the right cam and even “speed secrets” are only a phone call away. It’s true and many here can attest to it from experience.
Good conversation! Thanks for bringing this thread back
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: CompSyn]
#760284
08/09/10 08:57 PM
08/09/10 08:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,318
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,318
Prospect, PA
|
Quote:
Quote:
Bob and others racing at this level are true racing thoroughbreds. They are rule and rule loop hole experts. Don't be confused with what I'm saying, as this is a compliment. What the rules don't say is a lot, and how and what measurements are taken for certification is key as well.
If you take a box of stock parts, put it together per the blueprint spec.s, tune it very well, it will make 400 hp, and push a typical B body to 110 to 111 mph, and depending on suspension, to about 12.4 to 12.3 et. That is how it has been forever. With arguably tighter rules today, they are now at 440 hp, 115 mph, and 12.0s. Don't confuse what they are doing as just stock blueprinted stuff.
Not confused. Bob Karakashian is a modern day racing legend who took lessons from THE racing legend, Tom Hoover - A.K.A The Father Of The Hemi and Ramchargers fame. These guys KNOW the “tricks” to make these cars run. However, the “tricks” they are NOT using: ported heads, roller cam, light weight H-beams, pistons and a host of high dollar parts.
I’ve already provided numerous information links so I’ll include some actual quotes from the links.
Quote:
“Karakashian learned well from his mentor Tom Hoover. In doing so, he also accepted Hoover’s philosophy of freely sharing information. Speed “secrets” are not kept close to the vest, but openly shared with those willing to listen and learn. Karakashian’s first rule governing 440 Six Pack performance is not to over-cam. Most enthusiasts love to hear the rump-rump of a long duration cam with lots of overlap. He has found this to be counterproductive when running in a pure stock class with stock exhaust manifolds. Karakashian’s suggestion is to use a factory restoration cam. He has also experimented with several custom grinds that match the pure stock rules. He has installed a fairly conservative grind cam in his Six Pack Super Bee. He also suggests running the cam in the factory position or slightly retarded. Advancing the cam will add to the 440’s already powerful low-end torque. Karakashian suggests a 0 or –2 degree setting when installing the cam.” Cited:Bob Karakashian - Mr. Six Pack - Part Two- link
So I’ll agree with you that the average joe racer isn’t going to put his stock 440 into the 11 second bracket without the 70-plus years of combined “Mopar” drag racing experience shared between Karakashian and Hoover. The flip side to that is Mr. Karakashian "freely shares" information about these speed tricks and no purchase necessary. However, if you're building a stock 440, I'd highly recommend buying his custom cam grind.
Quote:
"I will tell everyone else on this thread what kinda guy Bob is. First off I'm a decent mechanic but not nearly as knowledgeable as Bob and I would bet not to many of you are either or have the track time and experience. And I'm not talking about sitting on a stupid computer, internet racing and talking about what you can or what you have done, I'm talking about spending countless hours and years some more than some of your ages at a dragstip trying different combination's and constantly trying to improve. When I met Bob a few years ago I had only known him for maybe 3 months tops and I decided to remove my headers and big cam and install one of his cams thanks to Paul who I had just met at a local track. Anyways I purchased one of his cams and after many phone conversations at home and at his work " oh and I'm sure he get's plenty from many of you because Ive seen his number posted here before. Well anyways I was having problems with the install and other issues due to a bad timing gear set, well I wasn't able to fix the problem so Bob decided that he would come to my house and help me out and I live about 50 miles from his house. Well after about 4 hours and burning the midnight oil we were done. Oh ya and he wouldn't even except any money I had to buy him and his wife a gift certificate for dinner. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that if a stupid cam spec makes you not want to buy one of his cams "don't buy it" it's probably not for you anyway. And as far as the so called idiots who don't know how to degree a cam in or spec one out, I guess some people are better at some things than others. I personally suck at grammar as you can tell from this post but I'm not really concerned because it's going to be my last one anyways." Cited: Moparts.com - Hillbilly Kidd
Quote:
Anyways, what pistons are these guys using: originals?, 20 year old after market replacement stuff?, or....?
Again, a quote from the link I’ve already provided:
Quote:
“Engine: Must be factory correct for the year, model, and horsepower claimed. Dealer installed engines and dealer performed engine modifications are not allowed. Casting numbers must be correct for the year and horsepower claimed including intake manifold, heads, and exhaust manifolds. Modifications are prohibited. Blocks do not have to be "numbers-matching," but they must be the correct displacement. Overbores up to .070" are allowed. Stock cranks only. NO strokers! Random P&G checks are possible. No lightweight cranks, connecting rods, or pistons allowed. Pistons must be of the original design for the year and horsepower claimed. Replacement forged pistons are allowed as long as they do not increase compression. Torque straps are allowed. No after-market blocks allowed.” Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race - RULES
You know it’s a shame that the first thing a lot of folks do is throw in a big lobe aftermarket camshaft, headers, intake and other numerous modifications when much of what they are looking for is right under their nose in “pure stock” form. Heck, the right cam and even “speed secrets” are only a phone call away. It’s true and many here can attest to it from experience.
Good conversation! Thanks for bringing this thread back
The links you provided do not answer the questions. The questions are: what pistons are they actually using, (not what the rules say), and where did the additional 40 hp come from in the last 7 years? It sounds like you do not know the answers. It also seems like you're just reading the links to web sites and either making presumptions on their intent verse what they say (or don't say) and then what can be actually measured. Terms like "Modifications are Prohibited" are meaningless and hugely grey.
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: BSB67]
#760286
08/11/10 07:59 AM
08/11/10 07:59 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
The links you provided do not answer the questions. The questions are: what pistons are they actually using, (not what the rules say), and where did the additional 40 hp come from in the last 7 years? It sounds like you do not know the answers. It also seems like you're just reading the links to web sites and either making presumptions on their intent verse what they say (or don't say) and then what can be actually measured. Terms like "Modifications are Prohibited" are meaningless and hugely grey.
I e-mailed Mr. Karakashian with regard to what pistons he is running. Below is a word for word quote:
Quote:
My pistons are Venolia, which I bought a long time ago. If you want the lighest piston out there, get CP pistons. They are the best and lightest. Diamond and others also make good pistons. Good luck. Bob
My presumption would be that Bob is using Venolia Part# 3852 - NHRA approved stock replacement pistons since that would seem to jive with PSMCDR rules for example:
- “Pistons must be of the original design for the year and horsepower claimed.”
- No light weight pistons.
- “Replacement forged pistons are allowed as long as they do not increase compression.”
However I did respond to his e-mail to see if I could dig up more definite info on the pistons.
Quote:
stock 440/6 pack ran low 14's new....so figure it out.................My 498 stroker on it's best day would not run 11.0...........
The stock 440/6 could run better than low 14s.
Quote:
Hot Rod Magazine take out an auto equipped Bee in August 1969. They quarter it in 13.56 - 105.63mph. With slicks they get 13.37 - 106mph. Cited:'69-1/2 SIXPACK / SIXBBL REGISTRY - link
After talking with Bob on the phone, I believe the heart of his set-up is the custom cam he has. Since PSMCDR rules state that engines must be capable of producing 16.0 inches of vacuum and that there is a “variance to the rule” in an event a car in stock trim cannot produce 16.0 inches of vacuum. Apparently, that was the 440 Six Pack since Bob has been allowed to put variances in his cam. And it apparently works well with stock unported 906 heads and HP exhaust manifolds.
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: scatpacktom]
#760288
08/11/10 06:28 PM
08/11/10 06:28 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
I always get a kick out of these threads. Always speculation regarding cheating. Bobs pistons aren't majic,there is not one single majic part in there. I'm sure you have heard this before but it is all about attention to detail in the engine and the car. Learning how to drive doesn't hurt either.
Thanks for that. From someone who actually races in the F.A.S.T and Pure Stock classes.
Quote:
F.A.S.T 71 Super Bee 440 six pack 4sp 11.54 at 122.99 on G70 14s
Maybe you can help shed some light on the differences between the Factory Appearing Stock Tire and PURE STOCK MUSCLE CAR DRAG RACE classes?
For example a 440+6 runs 11.54 in the F.A.S.T class and 12.09 in the PSMCDR class.
What might be some of the fundamental differences that separates a Stock Appearing (F.A.S.T) engine versus one that's been "Certified Stock" (PSMCDR)?
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: dulcich]
#760291
08/11/10 07:58 PM
08/11/10 07:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 197
New York
Dustin71
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 197
New York
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i have to say,you guys know your mopars.... the ones that said YUP!!! are right.... it is my Duster that did the above E.T. ......... i got 8yrs out of the engine before it got hurt.. i had a very good weather day and it went lean and blow torched right out the front of the #2 piston.... right out the dowl pin..... @3400lb it ran 11:00 @ 121mph and 10:03 @ 134mph thats why i love Mopars.... i made a lot of $$$$$ with the car... thanks again for all the response..... 
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