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Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing
[Re: GregCon]
#736631
06/30/10 12:15 AM
06/30/10 12:15 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,060
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,060
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
It sounds like you're just wanting to hear what you want to hear.
ding ding ding ... WINNER
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Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#736633
06/30/10 12:35 AM
06/30/10 12:35 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 181
Washington State
70chall440
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 181
Washington State
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Quote:
The great pissin/moaning debate of Green vs Taper, on "paper" the taper is by all accounts a superior design, but so is bulletproof glass, do I need that on my car also?....I've been installing the Green bearings for well over a decade on my cars, as well as customers cars, not one failure, showcars to roadracers, drag racers to street bashers, hard miles, track time, long distance, constant abuse street or track,....I've encountered quite a few failures with tapered bearings, including 2 axle losses,(shaft leaving the housing) often due to excessive HP and roadraceing, hence the prefered change to Green bearings, I was skeptical at first also using "Green" bearings in something other than a Drag only car, but seeing that I've had zero failures with Green bearings in a multitude of my personal and/or customers cars, vs multiple failures with tapered bearings, I'm more inclined to endorse the use of Green bearings for street and/or track,(drag or roadcourse) of course proper installation and premimum parts are a mandatory criteria for maximum performance and reliability.......See Dr Diff on the Moparts board for your required application
Mike
Outstanding information. thanks.
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Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing
[Re: BradH]
#736635
06/30/10 08:36 AM
06/30/10 08:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
Quote:
the "known fact" issue is exactly what started this thread. Everyone says it but no one has offered any real evidence other than saying that it is a "known fact".
All the major motorcycle manufacturers switched from using ball bearings in the steering head (the part of the the frame where the front suspension is mounted) to tapered roller bearings because the ball bearings would consistently develop a "notch" in the normal range of steering motion, typically right in the center where most loads occured.
Ball bearings are bicycle-grade technology. There's no way I'd run 'em in any axle application where they'd be expected to deal w/ significant side loads.
completely different application-- a steering head on a motorcycle only sees a range of motion of +/- 30 degrees max, and at high load, usually much less than that. it also sees a constant side load on the bearing (gravity).
yes, the tapered roller is a superior design, as it handles high thrust loads. but look at ford 9" and GM 12/14 bolt rears. they all use a flat roller bearing, IIRC, which doesn't carry thrust loads any better than a ball bearing....
I have been using green bearings in a hot street app for 9 years now, driving probably not _quite_ as extreme as scratchin's, but not far removed. my wilwood rear discs require them. my first set lasted only about 2k miles, but that was because I was told I didn't need to remove the thrust block/buttons in my diff. well, you don't if the axle is in the same position, but the way the wilwood kit was set up, it moved the axles inboard the thickness of the brake backing plate, which side loaded the bearings on the thrust block. when I replaced them, I put a spacer behind the brakes to move the axles out the 1/8" thickness of the old backing plate. almost 30k miles later, no issues.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing
[Re: patrick]
#736636
06/30/10 08:51 AM
06/30/10 08:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,060
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,060
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
but look at ford 9" and GM 12/14 bolt rears. they all use a flat roller bearing, IIRC, which doesn't carry thrust loads any better than a ball bearing....
This is an apples and oranges comparision because a FLAT ROLLER carries ZERO LOAD , the thrust load is carried by the end of the axle by a C clip and we all know what happens when the C clip lets go.
My problem with greens is I know a little too much about bearing design after taking a 3 day course given by SKF. Instead of taking a CHANCE because some people have had good luck running a bearing that is not designed to be loaded in the manner some are loading them .
All bearings will eventually fail without proper maintenance, at least the tapered roller CAN be maintained.
How many of your green autocross users are greasing your SEALED bearings ???
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Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing
[Re: 70chall440]
#736637
06/30/10 10:53 AM
06/30/10 10:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,734
Charlotte, NC
446acuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,734
Charlotte, NC
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Quote:
Id like to hear from someone who has actually tried using green (non-adjustable) rear bearings for autoX or road racing. I have read tons on the internet and still have not found any definitive on this issue. The urban legend says "no" but all I find is therorethical informaiton, no actual "been there done that" type info. I have seen quite alot of poeple who say they use them w/o issue but no one says in a road race or autox environment. If someone has real data I would like to hear it.
I'd say that the Green bearings bad reputation has everything to do with the questionable quality of the bearing and nothing to do with the fact that it is a sealed ball bearing. Sealed ball bearings have been used in millions of Fords throughout the years. Most of the later big 3.15" axle bearings in 9" rear were sealed ball bearings (used in F150, Bronco, big Lincolns, wagons) and all the small axle bearings used in Mustangs including Shelbys, Cougars, Falcons Fairlanes etc with 8" and 9" rears were sealed ball bearings. None of these bearings were known for failure and I'm sure the Shelbys were flogged pretty hard on the roadcourse and autocross back in the day. 7.25 mopar also has a sealed ball bearings and they last forever.
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Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing
[Re: JohnRR]
#736639
06/30/10 12:00 PM
06/30/10 12:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
Quote:
but look at ford 9" and GM 12/14 bolt rears. they all use a flat roller bearing, IIRC, which doesn't carry thrust loads any better than a ball bearing....
This is an apples and oranges comparision because a FLAT ROLLER carries ZERO LOAD , the thrust load is carried by the end of the axle by a C clip and we all know what happens when the C clip lets go.
umm, err, how many ford 9" rear are C-clip axles?
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing
[Re: patrick]
#736640
06/30/10 01:23 PM
06/30/10 01:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,060
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,060
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
but look at ford 9" and GM 12/14 bolt rears. they all use a flat roller bearing, IIRC, which doesn't carry thrust loads any better than a ball bearing....
This is an apples and oranges comparision because a FLAT ROLLER carries ZERO LOAD , the thrust load is carried by the end of the axle by a C clip and we all know what happens when the C clip lets go.
umm, err, how many ford 9" rear are C-clip axles?
I should have said a flat roller carries no side load. No c clips in the 9", yes , but do they use a flat roller or a ball bearing ?
Forget I said anything , someone wants to run greenies in auto cross , knock yourself out. I've got enough NOS tapered sets, with retainers, to last me 2 lifetimes in 4 cars .
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Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing
[Re: DoctorDiff]
#736641
06/30/10 11:12 PM
06/30/10 11:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,734
Charlotte, NC
446acuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,734
Charlotte, NC
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Quote:
No one said ball wheel bearings are STRONGER than tapered wheel bearings.
In reality, ball wheel bearings are adequate for most applications, and they are MUCH MORE COMMON than tapered rear wheel bearings. Ford, GM, Toyota and even Chrysler installed MILLIONS of them in production vehicles over the years.
Where did I say that ball wheel bearings were stronger? I'd prefer tapered bearings but ball bearings get the job done in most applications. My main point was that the green has a QUALITY issue, not a design issue. In other words, if mopar made the 8-3/4 and Dana with an O.E. quality ball bearing, then we wouldn't even be discussing bearing failures here.
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Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing
[Re: fbernard]
#736649
07/01/10 10:01 AM
07/01/10 10:01 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
scratchnfotraction
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
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fbernard.. are you running the thrust block in the diff with the disc brake set up? might be why they do not hold up,it places a lot of side load on the bearing  may have to add a spacer like patrick did on his to take up the diff of the missing backing late or remove the thrust block alltogether like I did with the one sealed side open to diff fluid does it seep/wick thru the other side of the bearing with out the housing seals? 
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Re: Green Bearings for AutoX or road racing
[Re: JohnRR]
#736650
07/01/10 10:09 AM
07/01/10 10:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
Forget I said anything , someone wants to run greenies in auto cross , knock yourself out.
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