HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torqued
#734184
06/26/10 07:44 PM
06/26/10 07:44 PM
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dirtybee
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i need some ideas 'cause i'm really bummed ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif) i bought a 500" stroker kit for a low deck last year, a 400" motor about 3-4 years ago and finally had funds for machining this year. i did everything, line hone and install studs, pin fitting, balance, bore/ hone, zero deck, cc'd one chamber to figure cr, performance valve job, blah blah. so i spent money i don't have so it would be done right and even paid $100 for a "trial assembly" but wanted to do my own assembly. the main bearings needed to be clearanced for the radiused fillets according to the machinist and this was done. so, i have tried 3 times torquing the main studs with lube on the bearings torqing to 30, 60, then 90 then setting #3 and it tightens right up to where i can't turn by hand. i have checked for runout with a dial indicator, the bearing clearance was checked at .024. any ideas? this is my first real build, machine shop is reputable yet have not called me back, the bearing faces look fine and i can spin the crank with a ratchet. i don't know if this is normal but don't think so. shouldn't the crank spin as easy as when the caps are off? sorry so long but i don't know what to do and i've spent a lot of money, thanks
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torqued
[Re: dirtybee]
#734185
06/26/10 07:54 PM
06/26/10 07:54 PM
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Breakaway torque can sometimes fool you. If it spins REALLY nice with a ratchet once you get it going then I would say your fine--However, Why don't you check the clearances and know for sure? J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: Quicktree]
#734197
06/26/10 10:02 PM
06/26/10 10:02 PM
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dirtybee
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yea send it back to the chinese
thanks, that helps
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: Baxter61]
#734198
06/26/10 10:05 PM
06/26/10 10:05 PM
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maybe the cranks bent
that was my first thought so i checked runout and it's perfect. needle doesn't budge.
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torqued
[Re: dirtybee]
#734201
06/26/10 11:09 PM
06/26/10 11:09 PM
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Do this. Just install #2 & #4 only, and see what happens. Then if ok add #1, check it, then # 5 and check it. See what happens there first. Do not install #3 up to this point.
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: CompWedgeEngines]
#734202
06/26/10 11:59 PM
06/26/10 11:59 PM
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Do this. Just install #2 & #4 only, and see what happens. Then if ok add #1, check it, then # 5 and check it. See what happens there first. Do not install #3 up to this point.
thank you, i did try that, i loosened all the studs, then tried #2 & #4 and it bound after like 30 or 45 ft/lb, the other caps were on but un-torqued. do the others need to be removed or is this ok?
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: Shaker223]
#734203
06/27/10 12:07 AM
06/27/10 12:07 AM
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It sounds like you are using studs. I had a like issue where a Stud was touching a cap internally and when torqued, my end play would go away. I put a stock bolt in and all was fine. I had to have the cap opened up .030" and the stud worked fine.
i also thought of this and may look into opening up the bolt holes in the caps but i don't lose the endplay of 5 or 6 thou when the crank binds????? ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shruggy.gif)
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: dOc …]
#734207
06/27/10 12:57 AM
06/27/10 12:57 AM
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TOSS that knife away and get a 1/4" carbide or steel burr and chuck-it into a drill.
If the crank is straight, and the bearings are at .0024 ... then it HAS TO BE the radis ,.... hit the bearings lightly ...and you should be good-to-go.
i was hoping someone would say something like that. i started with an x-acto, moved up to a ruko pocket blade, i hope taking a little more off will do the trick. i've never done this before so sorry if this seems redundant to some but i don't want to fu$$ this up.
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: 451Mopar]
#734208
06/27/10 01:01 AM
06/27/10 01:01 AM
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What bearings are you using? My stroker kit had the narrow width main bearings
you prolly have a RB kit, they don't make narrow mains for low deck. i'm using clevite 77.
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: dirtybee]
#734209
06/27/10 02:33 AM
06/27/10 02:33 AM
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My initial thoughts were that your bearings were contacting the radiused fillet of the crank. If it was a tall deck I would suggest using a 119M speedpro bearing, but since its a low deck, im not sure what is available for narrow bearings. I guess you will be narrowing the bearings yourself. I have had a machine shop narrow some rod bearings in the past and they turned out just fine.
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: dirtybee]
#734211
06/27/10 08:58 AM
06/27/10 08:58 AM
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It sounds like you are using studs. I had a like issue where a Stud was touching a cap internally and when torqued, my end play would go away. I put a stock bolt in and all was fine. I had to have the cap opened up .030" and the stud worked fine.
i also thought of this and may look into opening up the bolt holes in the caps but i don't lose the endplay of 5 or 6 thou when the crank binds?????
Had the same issue wherby #3 cap was tight on studs causing top & bottom bearing to misalign , had to open holes in cap a tad for correct endfloat , this does'nt appear to be you're problem so hold off on opening up cap.
All good experiance when building engines , some guys would bolt up & figure it will clearance itself ater a few miles. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif)
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torqued
[Re: dirtybee]
#734212
06/27/10 09:20 AM
06/27/10 09:20 AM
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i did everything, line hone and install studs
Did you line hone with bolts and then install the studs? If so this could be a problem, line honing needs to be done with whatever fasteners you intend to use ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Twocents.gif)
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: dirtybee]
#734213
06/27/10 09:43 AM
06/27/10 09:43 AM
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440Jim
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after further scraping on #5 bearing, i can now also torque it and spin the crank freely. now it is just #2 and #4 that cause binding. i have now taken a knife to these bearings twice and the machine shop did this once already. could this just be the radius needing more bearing removed?
It seems you have isolated the problem to those two bearings, and they need more material removed. Some of those stroker cranks have really wide radii and I am not aware of any low deck main bearings that are narrow enough. The RB has more choices in bearings. Are you using the brand crank known for bearing interference issues?
Sounds like the shop that narrowed the bearings for you didn't put them in the block with the crank to see if they went far enough. It is worth a phone call to them to see if they were able to get the crank in with the bearings, during the "trial" assembly. Without the pistons, the crank should turn by hand. Even with the pistons and rings, the steady turning torque should only be 20-30 lb-ft depending on rings.
The cap/stud interference is also possible, but I think the above is the cause from all the posts.
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seems i already took quite a bit off the bearings already. anybody know how much difference between a clevite regular and narrow main bearing?
Clevite MS-1277HG bearings (RB block) total width of 0.94" and at the chamfer (H) about 0.84"-0.85" Clevite MS-876P bearings (B block) total width of 0.94" But one brand crank may need a narrower bearing. I hope this helps you.
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: dirtybee]
#734214
06/27/10 09:54 AM
06/27/10 09:54 AM
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It sounds like you are using studs. I had a like issue where a Stud was touching a cap internally and when torqued, my end play would go away. I put a stock bolt in and all was fine. I had to have the cap opened up .030" and the stud worked fine.
i also thought of this and may look into opening up the bolt holes in the caps but i don't lose the endplay of 5 or 6 thou when the crank binds?????
You still have end play when the crank binds? If that's the case, you don't have a fillet radius problem. Check the crank for straightness.
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: rowin4]
#734218
06/27/10 11:13 AM
06/27/10 11:13 AM
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It sounds like you are using studs. I had a like issue where a Stud was touching a cap internally and when torqued, my end play would go away. I put a stock bolt in and all was fine. I had to have the cap opened up .030" and the stud worked fine.
i also thought of this and may look into opening up the bolt holes in the caps but i don't lose the endplay of 5 or 6 thou when the crank binds?????
How much pressure are you putting on the crank to get that end play? How big of a pry bar? .005-.006 isn't much to move with a big stick. Did you try changing the bearings around to different journals?
i'm reefing on a 18"-20" bar to get endplay. when i got everything back from machinist there was dye on bearings 1,3 and 5 and #1 and #5 were numbered on the back with marker, nothing on the other 2 so i tried switching those 2 around. i'm going out to remove more material, i'll report back later. thanks to everyone.
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: dirtybee]
#734219
06/27/10 11:19 AM
06/27/10 11:19 AM
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you should be able to get your end play reading with a 6" screwdriver. if you need a big long prybar you've certainly got some other issues. when measuring end play, move the crank toward the back of the engine, release pressure on the crank, set the indicator to zero. then move crank toward the front of the engine, release pressure, read the indicator. if you have to hold pressure on the crank, something else is wrong.
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: dirtybee]
#734223
06/27/10 06:18 PM
06/27/10 06:18 PM
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i used my telescoping gauge and a feeler gauge and found #2 bearing to be 0.0015out of round when torqued,
I don't have a number, but remember the bearings are made to have extra clearance close to the parting line, within maybe 1/4" inch. So if you measured more clearance at the parting line than up and down, that is normal.
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: dirtybee]
#734225
06/27/10 06:38 PM
06/27/10 06:38 PM
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i did not know that, but it seems like 1 and 3 are round while 2 mostly and 4,5 are somewhat egg shaped.
You need to take it back to the shop and have them look it and figure out what the problem is .
Oh and have your crank cut .010/.010 so you don't have to HACK your bearings ...
![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Twocents.gif)
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: JohnRR]
#734226
06/27/10 08:27 PM
06/27/10 08:27 PM
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i did not know that, but it seems like 1 and 3 are round while 2 mostly and 4,5 are somewhat egg shaped.
You need to take it back to the shop and have them look it and figure out what the problem is .
Oh and have your crank cut .010/.010 so you don't have to HACK your bearings ...
i was just about ready to do that and after the 4th time working these bearings i figured what the heck, just lay the crank to get it off the floor and see if by chance it would fit and WHAT? it spins like a dream. it's unbelievable how much material needed to be removed but it worked. would having the crank cut remove the radius or how would that help this issue? i'm learning here as far as aftermarket cranks and internals. thanks
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: dirtybee]
#734228
06/27/10 09:02 PM
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i'd love to see a couple pictures of those bearings now, if you don't mind.
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
#734229
06/27/10 09:04 PM
06/27/10 09:04 PM
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i'd love to see a couple pictures of those bearings now, if you don't mind.
same here, lets take a poll on who's crank it is ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh2.gif)
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: Quicktree]
#734230
06/27/10 10:29 PM
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i'd love to see a couple pictures of those bearings now, if you don't mind.
same here, lets take a poll on who's crank it is
i should have taken pics but the rear seal is in and after taking the caps off 6 times they are staying put. but i'll tell you that i used a random orbit sander to bring the total width of the bearing down to 0.936 then put a bevel of between 1/32 and 1/16 by the time it was all said and done. it is a 440source crank and i am happy with it, it is straight and i mic'ed the journals and they are perfect. laugh at me if you want but i 'm just happy all my frustration and work finally paid off ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Twocents.gif)
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: dirtybee]
#734231
06/27/10 11:02 PM
06/27/10 11:02 PM
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i'd love to see a couple pictures of those bearings now, if you don't mind.
same here, lets take a poll on who's crank it is
i should have taken pics but the rear seal is in and after taking the caps off 6 times they are staying put. but i'll tell you that i used a random orbit sander to bring the total width of the bearing down to 0.936 then put a bevel of between 1/32 and 1/16 by the time it was all said and done. it is a 440source crank and i am happy with it, it is straight and i mic'ed the journals and they are perfect. laugh at me if you want but i 'm just happy all my frustration and work finally paid off
good for you. being happy is a great feeling. so what size did those journals mic to?
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
#734232
06/27/10 11:12 PM
06/27/10 11:12 PM
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i'd love to see a couple pictures of those bearings now, if you don't mind.
same here, lets take a poll on who's crank it is
i should have taken pics but the rear seal is in and after taking the caps off 6 times they are staying put. but i'll tell you that i used a random orbit sander to bring the total width of the bearing down to 0.936 then put a bevel of between 1/32 and 1/16 by the time it was all said and done. it is a 440source crank and i am happy with it, it is straight and i mic'ed the journals and they are perfect. laugh at me if you want but i 'm just happy all my frustration and work finally paid off
good for you. being happy is a great feeling. so what size did those journals mic to?
2.6245" thanks for your concern. what's with the jabs? yes being happy is a good feeling
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#734234
06/27/10 11:44 PM
06/27/10 11:44 PM
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My 440 Source 4.15 RB crank impressed my machinist with it's tolerances. I've heard of a few guys having a few problems, but they're a good crank for the money. On the other hand, a friend of mine bought a complete Hemi stroker from INDY at the Mopar Nationals a few years back and has had a LOT of problems with it. After less than 4,000 street miles, he's in the process of completely rebuilding it and correcting several problems. The key is in knowing what your clearances are and paying attention to details in order to remove as many potential problem-causing variables as possible. Your work will pay off. I think your build will turn out just fine. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Twocents.gif)
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: dirtybee]
#734235
06/27/10 11:59 PM
06/27/10 11:59 PM
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I had a small block 360 do this to me once. It had studs, and the caps were opened up to clear the studs, yadda yadda, all the fun stuff was done. I still had a tight feeling. Like Dan said, if ya have to hold pressure on the screw driver to get end play something is wrong. An older guy, in his 70s, told me to take a dead blow hammer, a large one, and smack the snout, and the flange front to back a few times. He said some thrust bearings dont get shaped very well, and need to be matched up to your thrusd surface. I did that, and It freed up my assembly. Sounds like ya champfered the bearings, and have done youre homework. Dont know if this has been stated yet, but I hope you get the combo feeling correct cause it sucks doing it 2 times.
Good luck, and the Jabs seem to come from everyone sometimes, but atleast you are getting it going.
Kasey
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: dirtybee]
#734236
06/28/10 12:28 AM
06/28/10 12:28 AM
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i'd love to see a couple pictures of those bearings now, if you don't mind.
same here, lets take a poll on who's crank it is
i should have taken pics but the rear seal is in and after taking the caps off 6 times they are staying put. but i'll tell you that i used a random orbit sander to bring the total width of the bearing down to 0.936 then put a bevel of between 1/32 and 1/16 by the time it was all said and done. it is a 440source crank and i am happy with it, it is straight and i mic'ed the journals and they are perfect. laugh at me if you want but i 'm just happy all my frustration and work finally paid off
good for you. being happy is a great feeling. so what size did those journals mic to?
2.6245" thanks for your concern. what's with the jabs? yes being happy is a good feeling
i hope your not as thin skinned as some here. those weren't jabs. i was simply asking a question. it's unusual for the chinese cranks to come in exactly on the low number, but if you say so, i'll believe you. i was curious as to what your final bearing clearance ended up being too. it's odd how you had a machinist do the trial fit and then nothing fit. it's also odd that you had to do all that work sanding and cutting on the bearings to get the crank to rotate. hopefully the rest of the build goes a lot better and easier. i was serious when i said i'm glad your happy, you went to a lot of trouble to get everything to work right, you should be happy. ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbs.gif)
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#734237
06/28/10 01:04 AM
06/28/10 01:04 AM
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i did not know that, but it seems like 1 and 3 are round while 2 mostly and 4,5 are somewhat egg shaped.
You need to take it back to the shop and have them look it and figure out what the problem is .
Oh and have your crank cut .010/.010 so you don't have to HACK your bearings ...
I agree 100% with JohnRR. I have an Eagle crank in my engine that was turned .020/.020 and it also had the radius corrected and when I laid it into the block it turned like a dream with no trimming required ![](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbs.gif) Gus
Exactly , the CCJ cranks are WRONG. For some odd reason people believed the pied piper when he said to HACK your bearings to fit an incorrectly SANDED to finsh crank journal. My Eagle blem was cut to fit a low deck and offset ground, the radius is correct and it uses bearings shells OUT OF THE BOX, no HACKING required mains or rods and it doesn't even need the bandaid narrow rod bearings.
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: dirtybee]
#734242
06/28/10 07:21 PM
06/28/10 07:21 PM
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440Jim
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good for you. being happy is a great feeling. so what size did those journals mic to?
2.6245" thanks for your concern. what's with the jabs? yes being happy is a good feeling
FWIW, I have a 440Source 4.250" crank for my back up motor (budget). They must have at least one guy doing acceptable grinding. My mains measured: 2.7495 2.7495 2.7494 2.7495 2.7493
And the bearing clearances were all between 0.0027-0.0031".
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: 440Jim]
#734243
06/29/10 08:59 AM
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good for you. being happy is a great feeling. so what size did those journals mic to?
2.6245" thanks for your concern. what's with the jabs? yes being happy is a good feeling
FWIW, I have a 440Source 4.250" crank for my back up motor (budget). They must have at least one guy doing acceptable grinding. My mains measured: 2.7495 2.7495 2.7494 2.7495 2.7493
And the bearing clearances were all between 0.0027-0.0031".
Jim, did you have to clearance your bearings?
Some will definitely be better than others, the first one after a sandpaper change would be alot better than the last .
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Re: HELP, stroker crank not spinning freely when torque
[Re: JohnRR]
#734244
06/29/10 10:20 AM
06/29/10 10:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,932 NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,932
NC
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Quote:
Jim, did you have to clearance your bearings?
Some will definitely be better than others, the first one after a sandpaper change would be alot better than the last .
No. Both of my low deck blocks are machined for 440 mains with the aluminum main caps. The cranks are RB 4.250" (Current motor Callies, backup 440Source), and I am using MS-1277HG bearings.
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