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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: tywebb2] #663930
04/10/10 08:08 AM
04/10/10 08:08 AM
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Crizila Offline
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Looking at it from the front, ta-da left. Be interested to know where it is at before you make any changes. You should too.


Fastest 300
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: tywebb2] #663931
04/10/10 08:19 AM
04/10/10 08:19 AM
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Some cam gears need drilling out to except the offset bushings , looking @ the front of engine cam will go clockwise for advance , so 'fat' part of bushing will go toward the top , you can usually get a good idea on where that cam was installed , with the motor @ TDC ex stroke the intake/ex lifters will have the same height , any advance will show the intake lifter having more lift , just be sure you dialed the motor in for TDC , any variance from this will render the degreeing useless.

Good luck.

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: tywebb2] #663932
04/10/10 09:39 AM
04/10/10 09:39 AM
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Ontario, Canada
Dodgem Offline
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Quote:

I have a solid lifter in place. Set lash at zero? I pulled the rockers and the dial indicator is reading directly off of a modified pushrod that I have. That will work....right?

Regarding those offset bushings...how do they install for advance? I read somewhere that the fat part of the bushing goes "up" by my bro-in-law told me the fat part goes to the "left". I am sure I can figure out through trial and error but if anyone here know it will save me a little time.

Thanks




fat to the left to advance and fat to the right to retard.

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: Dodgem] #663933
04/10/10 01:01 PM
04/10/10 01:01 PM
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Jarrettsville, MD
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tywebb2 Offline OP
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Well after checking..rechecking..rerechecking.....everything I came up with the following

1st time through:

.050" 59.0 150.0 209.0 104.5*
.060" 64.0 145.0 209.0 104.5*
.050" 59.0 150.0 209.0 104.5*

I went back and double check TDC on the degree wheel and made a slight tweek.

2nd time through:

.050" 60.0 151.0 211.0 105.5*
.060" 65.0 146.0 211.0 105.5*
.040" 55.5 155.5 211.0 105.5*

Needless to say I am a little disappointed. I was hoping to see a 108*. Should I ever bother advancing it the few degrees to 102 or 103, or should I just leave it alone? I do not have the water pump or timing chain cover off yet so I have to decide if I want to go any further into it or not.

I am using the 7" mopar degree wheel so I guess there may be a little margin of error because it is so small. The 11" wheel I have won't clear the K-frame down below so I can't use it.


'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: tywebb2] #663934
04/10/10 01:15 PM
04/10/10 01:15 PM
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Dodgem Offline
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I would really try to get to 102 or 101?? (106 is where they put the dowel pin to come out yours is closer than I have come across)
4 degrees is a worthwhile gain trust me

Last edited by Dodgem; 04/10/10 01:17 PM.
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: Dodgem] #663935
04/10/10 01:30 PM
04/10/10 01:30 PM
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tywebb2 Offline OP
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I went back out and gave it a third try. Checked TDC to make sure it was correct and then I checked it at .040", .050", and .060". It came out to 105.5*, 105.5*, and 105.75* so it pretty much confirmed my second run numbers.

I guess I will go work on advancing it.

Dodgem...earlier you said to shot for 103-102. In the last post you mentioned 102-101. Why the change? Was it my initial reading of 105.5*?

One other thing, I don't have a cam card for the 509 cam. The book spec lists the centerline at 108 but you keep mentioning 106? Is 106 the installed center line and if so where did you find this spec?


'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: tywebb2] #663936
04/10/10 01:56 PM
04/10/10 01:56 PM
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Dodgem Offline
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cause 4 deg is what I would shoot for but they rarely turn out that way. by the time you drill the hole. Have gear clamped tight! LOL!! and put in a 4 deg dowel pin bushing they are rarely on the money.
I really like 102 for your motor but 103 would be cool and 101 fine too!!

But a 4 deg advance will really give it a kick in the pants

Last edited by Dodgem; 04/10/10 01:59 PM.
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: tywebb2] #663937
04/10/10 02:51 PM
04/10/10 02:51 PM
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Quote:



One other thing, I don't have a cam card for the 509 cam. The book spec lists the centerline at 108 but you keep mentioning 106? Is 106 the installed center line and if so where did you find this spec?







That cam has a 108* lobe sep. Mp suggests a 106* intake centerline. With 248* duration @.050 the intake open and close events will be as follows.

For Straight up Intake open ----Intake close

108* IntakeCL-----16*BTDC---------52*ATDC 0* SU.

106* ICL----------18*BTDC---------50*ATDC 2* ADV

104* ICL----------20*BTDC---------48*ATDC 4* ADV

102* ICL----------22*BTDC---------46*ATDC 6* ADV

mike

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: tywebb2] #663938
04/10/10 04:20 PM
04/10/10 04:20 PM
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Crizila Offline
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Quote:

Well after checking..rechecking..rerechecking.....everything I came up with the following

1st time through:

.050" 59.0 150.0 209.0 104.5*
.060" 64.0 145.0 209.0 104.5*
.050" 59.0 150.0 209.0 104.5*

I went back and double check TDC on the degree wheel and made a slight tweek.

2nd time through:

.050" 60.0 151.0 211.0 105.5*
.060" 65.0 146.0 211.0 105.5*
.040" 55.5 155.5 211.0 105.5*

Needless to say I am a little disappointed. I was hoping to see a 108*. Should I ever bother advancing it the few degrees to 102 or 103, or should I just leave it alone? I do not have the water pump or timing chain cover off yet so I have to decide if I want to go any further into it or not.

I am using the 7" mopar degree wheel so I guess there may be a little margin of error because it is so small. The 11" wheel I have won't clear the K-frame down below so I can't use it.


Be prepared to be little more dissappointed when you advance it 2-3 MORE degrees and you still don't get the performance gain you are expecting. Time to roll in some fresh technology and a cam that better fits your your application.


Fastest 300
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: Crizila] #663939
04/10/10 06:28 PM
04/10/10 06:28 PM
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tywebb2 Offline OP
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Oh well...if it doesn't end up making a big difference I will have a project for next winter. Its worth a try...right.
I pulled the rest of the front off of the motor and hope to mess around with it some more later tonight. I dropped a *#?:(.,#* bolt down in the oil pan this afternoon so I kind of got side tracked. My wife was standing there the whole time asking me why I was doing this and I really didn't have a good answer. I just told everybody 2 weeks ago that I wasn't going to do a thing to the Cuda this year...just drive it. Now I have the engine laying on my front bench??? I just can't leave anything alone??? What is wrong with me?

I did manage to fish the bolt out of the oil pan...phew.


'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: tywebb2] #663940
04/10/10 07:17 PM
04/10/10 07:17 PM
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tywebb2 Offline OP
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If I want to advance it 4* then should I start with the bushing stamped with a 4 or a 2?

Edit...Update:

I was going to try to advance it tonight but I ran into a few more questions....sorry.

First, I noticed that the "dots" on the sprockets line up on TDC of the exhaust stroke (starting to come up on the exhaust lobe). At this point, the dot on the cam sprocket is pointing down, the dot on the crank sprocket is pointing up, and the dowel pin is to the right.

If I rotate the engine to TDC on the compression stroke (both lifters are down), the dot on the cam sprocket is facing up, the dot on the crank sprocket is facing up, and the dowel is to the left.

Is this a problem? Should the dots be lined up on the compression stroke, or does it not matter?

Also, I notice the dowel fits into a slot in the cam sprocket, not a hole. Is there a trick to drilling it out properly or do I have to get a different cam sprocket?

Last edited by tywebb2; 04/10/10 08:51 PM.

'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: tywebb2] #663941
04/10/10 08:46 PM
04/10/10 08:46 PM
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Crizila Offline
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Quote:

Oh well...if it doesn't end up making a big difference I will have a project for next winter. Its worth a try...right.
I pulled the rest of the front off of the motor and hope to mess around with it some more later tonight. I dropped a *#?:(.,#* bolt down in the oil pan this afternoon so I kind of got side tracked. My wife was standing there the whole time asking me why I was doing this and I really didn't have a good answer. I just told everybody 2 weeks ago that I wasn't going to do a thing to the Cuda this year...just drive it. Now I have the engine laying on my front bench??? I just can't leave anything alone??? What is wrong with me?

I did manage to fish the bolt out of the oil pan...phew.


Your time is your time, so you get to spend it any way you want. I applaud you for trying stuff. It's always easier to just throw money at a problem. I just think I'd go a different route, that's all. When my wife asks questions like that my standard answer is: "I could always spend my time and $ at the local bar." BTW, there is nothing wrong with you. Real car guys are never happy with what they have.


Fastest 300
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: tywebb2] #663942
04/10/10 09:16 PM
04/10/10 09:16 PM
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Dodgem Offline
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well it's easier to do with dowel to the right "I think) but it makes no difference as long as the bushing moves the cam clockwise some.
This is a free try before spending money and i garrentee you get 3 1/2 to 4 more degrees of cam advance you will be amazed.
Give your wife some money to go shopping!!! LOL!!

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: Dodgem] #663943
04/10/10 09:27 PM
04/10/10 09:27 PM
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tywebb2 Offline OP
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Does it matter that the dots line up and the dowel is to the right at TDC of the exhaust stroke? I thought it would be that way when at TDC of the compression stroke?


'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: tywebb2] #663944
04/10/10 10:03 PM
04/10/10 10:03 PM
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Quote:

Does it matter that the dots line up and the dowel is to the right at TDC of the exhaust stroke? I thought it would be that way when at TDC of the compression stroke?




The Dots line up as you see ATDC between the exhaust and intake stroke, not on the compression stroke as alot believe. Thats why you will see distributers set 180* out on that misconception, Iv done it myself back in the day. mike

Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: Sport440] #663945
04/10/10 10:40 PM
04/10/10 10:40 PM
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tywebb2 Offline OP
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Great...that's where they line up so I guess I'm good to go.

I have the cam gear clamped in my drill press right now and I started drilling a 3/8" hole and it seems to be working well. I just marked the center of the dowel in the slot and did my best to center the bit on the lines. I will pick up a 13/32" drill bit tomorrow morning and punch it through.


'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: tywebb2] #663946
04/11/10 02:26 AM
04/11/10 02:26 AM
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Ty, check the exhaust side also, if the cam is ground on a 108 LSA the exhaust should be retarded toe same amount as the intake is advanced,IE intake in at 105.5 then the exhaust should be in at 111.5. All motors start the intake stroke at the beginning of the number one cylinder rotation, IE the piston starts down on the intake stroke as the exhaust valve closes 4 strokes, intake, compression, power and then exhaust


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: Cab_Burge] #663947
04/11/10 08:32 PM
04/11/10 08:32 PM
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tywebb2 Offline OP
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Well....drilling out the slot didn't work out so good. I was a hair off and by the time I filed it the fit of the bushing was loose.

I realized tonight that I have been measuring off of the #1 exhaust lobe all along I double and triple checked everything but that. So all of the numbers I have listed so far are for the #1 exhaust lobe. Sorry for the screw up. I will have to wait for my new timing gear set to come later in the week to get baseline numbers for the intake. I am going to go with a Cloyes Original True Roller. I hope they are good? The chain on my Mopar set had quite a bit of sag in it so I guess it is time to replace it anyway.


'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: tywebb2] #663948
04/11/10 09:29 PM
04/11/10 09:29 PM
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I have the Cloyes Hex-a-just timing set. Makes this job alot easier.

5920443-HC09(3).jpg (59 downloads)
Re: Question about degreeing cam in car [Re: Bigbeep] #663949
04/11/10 09:36 PM
04/11/10 09:36 PM
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tywebb2 Offline OP
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I would have liked to get one of the hex adjust sets but they don't make one for a one bolt cam as far as I can tell.

Last edited by tywebb2; 04/11/10 09:39 PM.

'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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