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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: tywebb2]
#663950
04/11/10 09:39 PM
04/11/10 09:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Well, Im not sure how you did that. When you mark your TDC and affix the degree wheel accordinly you measure max lift ATDC turning the crank clockwise. Max lift on the exhaust happens BTDC on the exhaust stroke. So if you were measuring the exhaust valve as the piston was approaching TDC and the numbers are true at 105.75 lets round that off two 106. Then your cam is installed 2* retarded. With a 108 LS straight up both the intake and exhaust would measure exactly the same distance apart from TDC 108* at the Crank. If your Exhaust is truely at 106* BTDC then your at 110 ATDC on the intake and retarded by 2* If thats the case you should be Really Happy! Because advancing that cam will make a Major Improvement in your cars performance. By the way, There is evidence that your cam is retarded with your posted intake and exhaust valve clearences. You had Alot on the intake and just enough on the exhaust. With a cam advanced its usually the other way around. I noticed that,when I read those specs  mike
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: Sport440]
#663951
04/11/10 10:09 PM
04/11/10 10:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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I did it by first finding TDC on #1 cylinder by using a positive stop in the #1 plug hole. Once I had TDC set correctly on the degree wheel I started turning the crank clockwise with the dial indicator on the connecting rod to the lifter (unfortunately it was the exhaust lifter). Once the lifter reached maximum lift I set the dial indicator to "0". Then I continued to turn the crank clockwise and recorded the number once the dial indicator needle pointed to the "50" just before TDC and then recorded the number when the needle on the dial indicator pointed to "50" after TDC. I added these two numbers and divided by 2 to get the final number. I did it using "40" and "60" on the dial indicator a couple times and the numbers worked out the same. I hope this is right?
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: tywebb2]
#663952
04/11/10 10:40 PM
04/11/10 10:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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That sucks!! Your not the first guy to be degreeing off the exhaust  Well my guess is 216 - 105.75 so intake in at 110.25 and that would be a killjoy bottom end with that cam LSA is 108 LSA is exhaust centerline + intake centerline / 2 105.75 + 110.25 =216 / 2 = 108 a new gear set will be sweet!!! Your learning all about degreeing and that will be sweet!!! 
Last edited by Dodgem; 04/11/10 10:40 PM.
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: 602heavy]
#663954
04/12/10 12:16 PM
04/12/10 12:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
We all make mistakes , good on you for getting in there & with a degree wheel , lots of guys just join the dots........ was having trouble degreeing a comp cam so got on the phone to comps wondering why the lobes were so far off cam card , the guy @ comps told me to sit back & think what i was doing wrong , turned out the dial indicator was in millimeters & not inches......... 
Dam sillymeters!!
My car stuff is all in inches my micrometer at work before I retired was electronic and switched form sillymeters to inches. Canada went metric in 75 to 77 I was taught both in school in the fifties and sixties so no big deal. But the degreeing off an exhaust lobe can throw you off as I can imagine finding the @.050 lobe lift in sillymeters would be a head scratcher.
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: Dodgem]
#663955
04/12/10 08:36 PM
04/12/10 08:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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Cloyes True Roller is on the way from Summit. I also got a Comp Cams crank socket which should make the whole process of finding TDC a whole lot easier. I was getting really tired of crawling under the car to turn the engine counterclockwise with flywheel bolts. Should have the stuff by mid week  .....then the fun will continue.
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: Dodgem]
#663958
04/13/10 10:32 PM
04/13/10 10:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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Yep....that's exactly the one I have coming. I think it will make the process of finding TDC a whole lot easier. I want to know how you got that big degree wheel to clear the k-frame? I tried an 11" degree wheel and it won't clear on mine?
Thinking ahead here, when I installed the cam years ago and lined up the dots I am pretty sure it degreed in at 108* on the intake. My valve clearances were .162" intake and .113" exhaust. If I find the cam is in at 108* or 110* and have to advance it 6-8* how much of a difference is that going to make in my intake valve clearance? Is there reason for concern or was my starting point of .162" plenty to play with? I will probably be checking PTV clearance anyway when I am done but just wondered how close it may get since advancing it will tighten up the intake PTV.
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: tywebb2]
#663959
04/13/10 10:38 PM
04/13/10 10:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Yep....that's exactly the one I have coming. I think it will make the process of finding TDC a whole lot easier. I want to know how you got that big degree wheel to clear the k-frame? I tried an 11" degree wheel and it won't clear on mine?
Thinking ahead here, when I installed the cam years ago and lined up the dots I am pretty sure it degreed in at 108* on the intake. My valve clearances were .162" intake and .113" exhaust. If I find the cam is in at 108* or 110* and have to advance it 6-8* how much of a difference is that going to make in my intake valve clearance? Is there reason for concern or was my starting point of .162" plenty to play with? I will probably be checking PTV clearance anyway when I am done but just wondered how close it may get since advancing it will tighten up the intake PTV.
We use the big wheels on the engine stand plus they
are more accurate... they sure wont work with a
K-member and all of the accessories but they even
fit in a tube chassis car(most of the times)
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#663960
04/13/10 10:53 PM
04/13/10 10:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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Yeah...I used the 11" wheel when building the engine on the stand several years ago. I just noticed in Dodgem's pic that the engine was in the car and he had what looked to be an 11 or 12" degree wheel on it?
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: tywebb2]
#663962
04/14/10 07:20 AM
04/14/10 07:20 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Yeah...I used the 11" wheel when building the engine on the stand several years ago. I just noticed in Dodgem's pic that the engine was in the car and he had what looked to be an 11 or 12" degree wheel on it?
Yea the 11" Mr gasket has always worked in my 68 GTX. I originally got a 7" (8"???) Direct Connection then the 11" Mr Gasket and now I have a moroso pro 18" but it won't work in the car.
see moroso's 11" says for in car
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mor11degwhee.html
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: Sport440]
#663963
04/14/10 08:58 PM
04/14/10 08:58 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,556
On the run…
BloFish
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,556
On the run…
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Who's big block valve spring compressor are you using? I am looking for one as we speak, as I am changing my cam in the car as well.
It really doesn't matter whether you win or lose…
as long as you look good doing it!
‘65 A100
‘69 ‘Cuda
‘73 Vega GT
‘06 Mega Cab
‘14 Mercedes SLK
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: BloFish]
#663964
04/14/10 10:06 PM
04/14/10 10:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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Well....my parts showed up today I installed the Cloyes timing chain set and wow...the chain was a lot tighter than the Mopar set I removed. Installed straight up I got 108.5* measuring on the intake this time (definately the intake this time  ) Before drilling I decided to advance the crank sprocket using the advance keyway. Doing this got me to 104.5* so I am moving in the right direction. Now...should I move the crank sprocket back and try a 6* bushing in the cam sprocket? Or should I leave the crank sprocket where it is and try a 2* bushing in the cam sprocket? Does it really make any difference? Anyway...it looks like I am moving in the right direction now and I have a nice new Cloyes timing set to boot. That crank socket is a life saver. Wow does it make finding TDC a whole lot easier!!!
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: tywebb2]
#663965
04/14/10 10:35 PM
04/14/10 10:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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I take it the Cloyes only has the 4* advance or retard. I was going to ask you about that but you said it was already on its way. For x amount more Summit has a nice more adjustable set up, no drilling. From your specs you were sitting at a 110 ICL or 2* retarded. If you are now at 104.5* you are 5.5* more advanced then you were. That will show a significant improvement. You could leave it where its at right now and Id bet youd be happy For what its worth, Im at 104.5 @ centerline or 104* based on Valve events. While its apart and if its decided you going the 2* extra. I would use the 2* bushing, it will be thicker to the dowl. mike
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: Sport440]
#663966
04/14/10 11:17 PM
04/14/10 11:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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I saw the sets with something like (9) keyways on the crank sprocket but my bro-in-law swore by the Cloyes Original True Roller set so I decided to go with it since I already have the bushings.
While I have it apart I think I will go for another 2* to get me in that 102-103* range hopefully.
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: tywebb2]
#663968
04/15/10 07:38 AM
04/15/10 07:38 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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I would use the straight up crank key and try 6 on the cloyes and 8 if you need it. offsetting the crank key also offsets the balancer throwing the timing mark off. Your going to be one happy camper you have my guarantee!!
I'll bet with your old timing set you were in at 110 or 110.5 by your exhaust centerline. That car must have been a dog bottom end with a 3000 stall??? This cam obviously has the dowel out (not uncommon that's why we check). the gear set was probably off a little more would be why you had such massive intake clearance the intake was a day late opening.
Don't forget a new chain will stretch a bit right away retarding a 1/2 degree or so right away.
If you left you distributor in check your timing it will advance the amount you advance the cam so if you know where it was you will know how much this work got you. if you get it in at 103 I would bet your timing moves up 7 deg
Last edited by Dodgem; 04/15/10 07:49 AM.
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