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Question about degreeing cam in car
#663910
04/07/10 06:43 PM
04/07/10 06:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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I am just trying to figure out how far I will have to tear into the engine to degree the cam (MP 509 hyd). I would like to check to see where it is now and then advance it per recommendations received on this board.
I know I will have to pull the front off of the motor and was hoping I would only need to pull the carb and intake off. Will I need to pull one of the heads? Is there any way to do it without pulling the heads and the intake?
The motor is a 440 w/Eddy heads if it makes any difference.
Thanks
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: tywebb2]
#663911
04/07/10 07:19 PM
04/07/10 07:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Assume the 509 thats in there was not degreed when installed: No, you don't have to pull the heads. You can use a spark plug style positive stop tool to find true TDC. Go slow and make sure the valve train is disconnected ( valves remain closed ) on #1 Cyl. Yes, you will have to remove the intake manifold as you will have to replace the hyd lifter with a solid lifter ( or degree checking lifter tool ) for your dial indicator to ride on. And of coarse the front of the engine will have to be open to the timing chain and gears. Just FYI, about 75% of the posts on this sight relating to cam performance issues say "advance the cam" . My personnel opinion is to stick with the cam manufacturers recommendations, unless you are a very knowledgeable engine builder and doing some fine tuning or are a cam expert. Often times you are better off purchasing the correct cam for your application rather than trying to fix an existing misapplication by advancing / retarding your cam. If you decide to advance it, I would not go over 4 degrees under most circumstances. Also, piston to valve clearance will have to be checked.
Fastest 300
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: AndyF]
#663914
04/07/10 08:49 PM
04/07/10 08:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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It has been several years now but I did degree the cam when I installed it. I don't remember for sure but I think it was 108...possibly 106?
Others here have said the 509 likes to be set at about 103 or 102. I have always thought the car felt "flat" so I figured for the small amount of money and time invested it would be worth a try advancing it?
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: tywebb2]
#663915
04/08/10 07:27 AM
04/08/10 07:27 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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MP makes two 509 lift cams. One has a 108 C/L and is referred to as a street/strip cam and one has a 114 C/L and is for "improved driveability" on the street. Both are old grinds - as compared to what is out there today. Don't know what the rest of you set up is, but your 60 foots, ET and speed all match up well. If you are running the 108, advancing it might show a very slight improvement ( again, depending on your set up - heavy car, tall gear, etc.), but IMO you aren't going to see anything major. Remember, you will only be one step away from rolling in a newer and much improved grind.
Fastest 300
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: Crizila]
#663917
04/08/10 08:27 AM
04/08/10 08:27 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
MP makes two 509 lift cams. One has a 108 C/L and is referred to as a street/strip cam and one has a 114 C/L and is for "improved driveability" on the street. Both are old grinds - as compared to what is out there today. Don't know what the rest of you set up is, but your 60 foots, ET and speed all match up well. If you are running the 108, advancing it might show a very slight improvement ( again, depending on your set up - heavy car, tall gear, etc.), but IMO you aren't going to see anything major. Remember, you will only be one step away from rolling in a newer and much improved grind.
If you have never advance a 509 (108) 4 degree you have no idea how much difference it makes "I do" and it's huge. now if you have a 4200 to 4500 stall you will not see as much but a 2800 to 3000 it's huge!!!
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: Dodgem]
#663918
04/08/10 09:56 AM
04/08/10 09:56 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
Quote:
MP makes two 509 lift cams. One has a 108 C/L and is referred to as a street/strip cam and one has a 114 C/L and is for "improved driveability" on the street. Both are old grinds - as compared to what is out there today. Don't know what the rest of you set up is, but your 60 foots, ET and speed all match up well. If you are running the 108, advancing it might show a very slight improvement ( again, depending on your set up - heavy car, tall gear, etc.), but IMO you aren't going to see anything major. Remember, you will only be one step away from rolling in a newer and much improved grind.
If you have never advance a 509 (108) 4 degree you have no idea how much difference it makes "I do" and it's huge. now if you have a 4200 to 4500 stall you will not see as much but a 2800 to 3000 it's huge!!!
Your right, I never have ( or at least don't remember doing it - as I said, that cam has been around almost as long as I have )  Good luck with it and let us know the results. 
Fastest 300
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: Dodgem]
#663919
04/08/10 03:23 PM
04/08/10 03:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
602heavy
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
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Quote:
If you have never advance a 509 (108) 4 degree you have no idea how much difference it makes "I do" and it's huge. now if you have a 4200 to 4500 stall you will not see as much but a 2800 to 3000 it's huge!!!
If the motor picked up as much as you are saying with 4* advance i would think it would of faired better with a smaller cam , if the motor picks up when retarded then the motor is teling you the cam is too small , i realise moving ICL around can pose different results , in saying this these cams are tried & tested so the manu will know where this cam will make best power , maybe it was'nt suited for you're application? 
Advancing ICL for improved low end power will more oftn than not suffer on the big end.
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: 602heavy]
#663921
04/08/10 06:29 PM
04/08/10 06:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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[ If the motor picked up as much as you are saying with 4* advance i would think it would of faired better with a smaller cam , if the motor picks up when retarded then the motor is teling you the cam is too small , i realise moving ICL around can pose different results , in saying this these cams are tried & tested so the manu will know where this cam will make best power , maybe it was'nt suited for you're application? Advancing ICL for improved low end power will more oftn than not suffer on the big end.
Top end power is above 6000 RPM for this cam since you run 3000 to 6000 3 times while never going over 6000 it's all gain gain.
many cams give great results advancing them from suggested intake install.
I have done it a lot and only got gains advancing the cam??
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: 602heavy]
#663924
04/08/10 07:32 PM
04/08/10 07:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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Decisions....decisions. Advancing the cam to 103 or 102 is really only going to cost me time so I guess it is worth a try. But on the other hand I have heard so many times that the 509 is an "old" grind and there are so many better options around now.
Lunati recommended their 60304 Voodoo cam. The specs were:
Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 276/284; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 234/242; Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .513/.533; LSA/ICL: 110/106
I haven't gotten through to Comp yet to see what they would recommend. My set-up is..
446ci
10:1
TRW six-pak pistons
Eddy dual plane intake
Eddy 84cc heads
825 Mighty Demon
727 w/10" 3000 stall Turbo Action vert
4:10 gears
3600lb. car
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: tywebb2]
#663925
04/08/10 10:30 PM
04/08/10 10:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
Decisions....decisions. Advancing the cam to 103 or 102 is really only going to cost me time so I guess it is worth a try. But on the other hand I have heard so many times that the 509 is an "old" grind and there are so many better options around now.
Lunati recommended their 60304 Voodoo cam. The specs were:
Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 276/284; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 234/242; Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .513/.533; LSA/ICL: 110/106
I haven't gotten through to Comp yet to see what they would recommend. My set-up is..
446ci
10:1
TRW six-pak pistons
Eddy dual plane intake
Eddy 84cc heads
825 Mighty Demon
727 w/10" 3000 stall Turbo Action vert
4:10 gears
3600lb. car
That Voodoo cam is low on duration but has extra lift. IMO the low duration will give you extra torgue which you need and the extra lift with your Eddy heads will give you some HP.
But I think the Extra duration 248* of the MP cam will trump that by a Bunch!! And advancing the MP 509 from 108* if thats where your really at to 102 to 104 will give you a Bunch more of low end torque witch you really need with that 3000 stall vert.
IMO, Advance the cam you have First, Its a Great cam! mike
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: Sport440]
#663926
04/09/10 09:56 AM
04/09/10 09:56 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
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That Voodoo cam is low on duration but has extra lift. IMO the low duration will give you extra torgue which you need and the extra lift with your Eddy heads will give you some HP. But I think the Extra duration 248* of the MP cam will trump that by a Bunch!! And advancing the MP 509 from 108* if thats where your really at to 102 to 104 will give you a Bunch more of low end torque witch you really need with that 3000 stall vert. IMO, Advance the cam you have First, Its a Great cam! mike
I could have wrote this! LOL!
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: Dodgem]
#663927
04/09/10 10:26 PM
04/09/10 10:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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I have a valve cover and the intake off. Dial indicator is set up and degree wheel is bolted to the crank. I hope to find out where the cam is currently set sometime tomorrow. This is a lot more work than I thought it would be but then again isn't that always the case. I sure hope it is worth it in the end.
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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Re: Question about degreeing cam in car
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#663929
04/10/10 06:49 AM
04/10/10 06:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
tywebb2
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,221
Jarrettsville, MD
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I have a solid lifter in place. Set lash at zero? I pulled the rockers and the dial indicator is reading directly off of a modified pushrod that I have. That will work....right?
Regarding those offset bushings...how do they install for advance? I read somewhere that the fat part of the bushing goes "up" by my bro-in-law told me the fat part goes to the "left". I am sure I can figure out through trial and error but if anyone here know it will save me a little time.
Thanks
'72 440 Cuda
11.673 @ 115.91 w/1.663 60'
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