Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: hooziewhatsit]
#662735
04/27/10 01:19 PM
04/27/10 01:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533 Indiana
Fury Fan
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Quote:
So, it looks like you got the distributor figured out
Up above you mentioned something about the IAC valve? I was thinking that'd be a pretty straightforward part of the swap
Since it mounts directly to the throttle body, either get an elbow adapter like shown in the very first link, or come up with another way to mount it to the intake.
Whether the IAC is a PITA depends more on what intake manifold and/or throttle body you plan to use. The Ford IAC is PWM (pulse-width modulated) while most GM, Dodge and universal 4-barrel-style use stepper motors. I believe somebody makes one of the 4V types with a PWM (Hitachi?) IAC that might be PWM, so check around. That's a high $$ TB, though.
So if you’re planning on putting the 5.0 stuff with a 5.2/5.9 throttle body (some guys in the poll said they’d be using the beerbarrel) or a 4-barrel-style TB, the Ford IAC won’t work without some mods to mount it remotely and ensure the original passage doesn’t leak air (that can be the harder part).
If you’re using a ‘standard’ converted intake manifold, then an Edelbrock elbow with a 5.0 TB on it is quite simple. For those in the lower-HP (or budget) domain, I recommend you check out the TB and elbow from a 4.6 Ford. Those TBs are 65 mm and good for around 245 hp (on paper). The 5.0 HO had a 60mm TB, and those engines can be tweaked above their 225hp rating before the TB becomes the restriction, so I’d bet the 65mm can go to 275hp or so. . The elbow requires an adapter plate to match the manifold but it would be a fairly simple one to make on a drillpress. Another option: look for a 5.0 Explorer, they have an intake similar to the Mustang but it has a 90° elbow that might be usable (and the TB is a 65mm unit, albeit different from the 4.6).
If you plan to mount the 5.0 TB right on top of a standard intake, the IAC will probably interfere with your aircleaner, as the IAC now points straight upward about 3". You could make a small thick adapter plate with cross-drilled passages to make it level, though. You'd also need some way to fasten the aircleaner. I have done such a configuration, and it fits neatly under a factory aircleaner.
Remote-mounting the IAC: To remote-mount the Ford IAC, you’ll make a plate to cap-off the IAC ports, then drill//tap that plate for 2 barbed fittings that align with the ports. Run 2 hoses, one to the inside of the air filter region and the other to below the throttle blades. You might be tempted to T it into the power brake fitting, but don’t do that on a dual-plane manifold if that location is only in 1 plane.
Do something similar to the TB to block off the original IAC path. This is a little tougher as the passages are usually cast into teh TB and will vary based on what TB you use.
Get a roll of gasket paper from the auto parts store and get crackin’.
Parts I seek:
driver doorpanel, 65 Sport Fury, prefer black, needs to be 7-8 on 10 scale, might buy set
16" x 6" Dodge truck wheel(s), from early 70s?, takes 9" dogdish - need for a research job so cheaper is better.
69-73 C-body caliper brackets and/or splashields
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: hooziewhatsit]
#662736
04/27/10 01:31 PM
04/27/10 01:31 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533 Indiana
Fury Fan
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Quote:
Either way, the 'hard' part will be running the new throttle cable, and for us with automatics, the Throttle Pressure Cable (or kickdown cable )
Or is there something else I'm missing?
Nah, we're still planning hardware, I'm sure there will be more hurdles after that!
throttle and kickdown cables: Ford used a kickdown-type cable on their AOD transmissions, so a 5.0 TB from an OBD1 car should have provisions on it for 2 cables. 5.0 Explorers and 4.6 vehicles all had electronic transmissions, so no 2nd cable -- those TBs could still be made to work, perhaps?
Also, if you find a Lincoln Mark 7 with 5.0 HO, it will have the TB on the passenger side and the cable might be long enough to use, but you’ll have to figure out how to hook it to your pedal.
For cables, check out your nearest Dodge van and/or pickup. Some of them are pretty long, and the firewall-mounted footpedals probably fit in late-60s-up Mopars with little effort. The KD cables should be easy to use also. I also discovered that a ‘low-head’ allenhead screw (can’t remember the size, perhaps #6?) was a near-perfect item to emulate the cable pins used on a Maggie TB. The cables have a special square locking clip that goes into a bracket on the TB, either get that bracket to reuse or make the square hole with a drill bit and a sharp needle file (I’ve done it both ways). http://www.mcmaster.com/#socket-cap-screws/=6ufx2q
For reusing any OEM cable you’ll most likely have to modify something at one end or the other, so a universal cable or a Lokar might end up better on the time/money scale – each person has to decide for themselves.
Parts I seek:
driver doorpanel, 65 Sport Fury, prefer black, needs to be 7-8 on 10 scale, might buy set
16" x 6" Dodge truck wheel(s), from early 70s?, takes 9" dogdish - need for a research job so cheaper is better.
69-73 C-body caliper brackets and/or splashields
Send a PM.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Fury Fan]
#662737
04/27/10 01:33 PM
04/27/10 01:33 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,766
Andrewh
OP
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kick down may or may not be simple. I can't tell how cables mount the ford throttle. If you scavange the parts off the newer truck the magnum comes out of, there is a factory cable to run the kick down lever. It requires a few parts and a big bolt. You may have to mod the tb side, but with these parts it should clip on to the transmission side.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Fury Fan]
#662738
04/27/10 04:06 PM
04/27/10 04:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,951 Oregon
hooziewhatsit
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Quote:
If you plan to mount the 5.0 TB right on top of a standard intake, the IAC will probably interfere with your aircleaner, as the IAC now points straight upward about 3". You could make a small thick adapter plate with cross-drilled passages to make it level, though. You'd also need some way to fasten the aircleaner. I have done such a configuration, and it fits neatly under a factory aircleaner.
I was contemplating doing something similar to this. Also need to put the MAF in there somewhere; but you said you were doing SD, so you don't need it. That would definitely make a pseudo-stealth install easier.
I have something in mind that would stick the TB and MAF under the aircleaner, but I need to get everything and mock it up to see if it'll actually work, and not be too tall. The thin style MAFs are $$$
For the KD cable, it really shouldn't be too hard to find one long enough and finangle a way make it work. Heck, even a long manual choke cable with custom ends should be feasible to get to work.
All this planning, and I still don't have an engine to put it on yet
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Andrewh]
#662740
05/11/10 10:20 AM
05/11/10 10:20 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,951 Oregon
hooziewhatsit
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I was thinking about bumping it back up also...
Are there any other 'issues' that still need to be figured out?
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Fury Fan]
#662741
05/11/10 10:24 AM
05/11/10 10:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,131 Amarillo, Texas
BBR
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
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Amarillo, Texas
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Some of this has been hashed out already: http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=46207.0Still looking for the old moparts thread from 2005... IIRC the consensus was that a small block TBI distributor would work fine with the Ford stuff.
Drag Week 2011 - 77th place - DD Drag Week 2012 - 2nd place SRBB N/A Drag Week 2014 - Kapooya RMRW 2018 RMRW 2020
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: BBR]
#662742
05/11/10 11:23 AM
05/11/10 11:23 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533 Indiana
Fury Fan
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If a smallblock TBI dizzy will work fine as-is, then we're off to the next step. If it's not OK, it might lead to some diagnosing at initial startup. Next up - wiring. I have a SD ECU from a Mark 7. Got a harness stub from a Conti. Some of the wires don't match between harness and the ECU pinouts (according to fordfuelinjection.com, anyway) but I think it'll be OK when it's re-tasked. The harness connector was impossible to get out of the Mark without major surgery to either the dash or firewall, but the Conti was a piece o'cake as it's all underhood. Conti harness has a 3-relay module built into it also. I'm slowly working on making a schematic in CAD, then I can start to terminate the wire stubs onto a terminal strip (3 of them, probably, need at least 34 pins!). Need to figure out only the wires that are mandatory for the engine to start. Can hook other things up later and also make it durable/rugged. FYI: For the wiring, I've found a few cute, cheap watertight boxes at... wait for it... Lowes! Look at outdoor electrical enclsoures for outdoor lighting, sprinkler systems, etc. I've only found 2-gang boxes, though, so if you need a bigger one, check McMaster.com. These are somewhat reasonably-priced. http://www.mcmaster.com/#electrical-enclosures/=71lgavThis would be nice, but I’m sure it’s pricey: http://www.bussman.com/pdf/c131c9d2-d45b-436d-a4ee-0d69bf5a0bb6.pdfSo who knows what junkyard vehicles have the easiest to remove, most stand-alone, and easiest to re-use 8-cyl injector harness? I'll give the answer shortly...
Parts I seek:
driver doorpanel, 65 Sport Fury, prefer black, needs to be 7-8 on 10 scale, might buy set
16" x 6" Dodge truck wheel(s), from early 70s?, takes 9" dogdish - need for a research job so cheaper is better.
69-73 C-body caliper brackets and/or splashields
Send a PM.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: BBR]
#662744
05/13/10 01:13 PM
05/13/10 01:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533 Indiana
Fury Fan
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
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Indiana
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IMHO, the 8-cyl injector harness to get... Cadillac Northstar and Olds Aurora 4.0 V8 around the mid-late 90s (give or take). The harness contains only the injectors + 1 other sensor, it lays right on top of the intake with no other junk crossing over it, it has a big connector in it that you can use on your car if you want, and it's dog-gone cheap! Ford 5.0 and 4.6, Magnum V8s and others I've looked at either require fuel rail removal, have injector banks split into 2 harnesses, and/or have a bunch of other sensors and junk in the way. Steps (as I remember them): 1. remove the engine cover, 2. unclip each connector/injector (this takes a little practice on the metal push-clips), 3. follow the harness under the TB to the top of the transaxle and cut as far on the other side of the main connector as possible (but that's usually only a few inches before it blends into another harness). 4. pull the big connector under the TB, bending some small brackets, etc, to get clearance. It'll take you about 15 min to get one out if you're slow. I've grabbed a few of these harnesses in the past and often the injectors are gone from these cars already, so there's 2 min saved on the injector clips.
Parts I seek:
driver doorpanel, 65 Sport Fury, prefer black, needs to be 7-8 on 10 scale, might buy set
16" x 6" Dodge truck wheel(s), from early 70s?, takes 9" dogdish - need for a research job so cheaper is better.
69-73 C-body caliper brackets and/or splashields
Send a PM.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Fury Fan]
#662745
05/25/10 08:39 AM
05/25/10 08:39 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533 Indiana
Fury Fan
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Anybody got any updates? Hoozie - did you find an engine yet? I finally got a service manual to go with the ECM I have, now I need to go thru and see if the pinout info from fordfuelinjection.com is correct. I would've trusted that info for diagnosing a factory car, but not for re-tasking a Conti harness to a Mark ECU to a Mopar engine. 1 wrong wire could ruin everything, either in a puff of smoke... or silently. In the next few weeks I'll start connecting the harness to some terminal blocks, then figure out what's next and what car/engine to try it on.
Parts I seek:
driver doorpanel, 65 Sport Fury, prefer black, needs to be 7-8 on 10 scale, might buy set
16" x 6" Dodge truck wheel(s), from early 70s?, takes 9" dogdish - need for a research job so cheaper is better.
69-73 C-body caliper brackets and/or splashields
Send a PM.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Fury Fan]
#662746
05/25/10 09:20 AM
05/25/10 09:20 AM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 401 Berlin, Germany
Flo
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 401
Berlin, Germany
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I installed an EDIS ignition system on my LA small block. Here is a link with some drawings: EDIS install This is actually a large step foward EFI. You can either go Megasquirt from there or run a Ford setup. greets Flo
Last edited by Flo; 05/25/10 09:20 AM.
1967 Fury III 4door HT
tiny 318, late model roller block, bored and stroked to 344
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: hooziewhatsit]
#662748
10/13/10 04:24 PM
10/13/10 04:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,951 Oregon
hooziewhatsit
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So, I somehow ended up with a '96 5.9l block in my shed, and a Ford harness in a box After looking at everything for a while, I had one revelation: The plastic bushing that holds the Mag TBI wheel to the shaft can have its 4 plastic plugs drilled out removing the metal wheel from it. The bushing can then go upside down on the shaft, and the Ford key (with a larger hole) can fit on top and bolt to it. Things I still need figure out include the final installed height of the plastic bushing, and if I can use the roll pin hole where it is, or if it needs to go up or down. My second revelation: The Ford & Dodge hall sensors look just about identical. I have the pinout of the Ford one, so I wonder if the Dodge one matches, just lining up the wires coming out of the sensor To make a short story even shorter, the Dodge hall sensor has the same pinout as the Ford, and it works just fine at 15v!* Now I need to find a dodge wheel with 8 teeth. Fury Fan, do the 8 tooth wheels you have, have the same angle between all the teeth (except for #1 on the Ford of course)? It would be awesome if we could use otherwise 'off the shelf' parts, rather than needing to hack on another sensor if we need to install a new one. Make an adapter to go from the remote mount Ford TFI to the Dodge hall sensor. Everything just 'plugs in' As for alignment of the rotor to the wheel, see the attached picture. This is a ford distributor. You can see how the rotor is indexed by that hole in the wheel. So, all we need to do is make that hole line up with the rotor in the dodge housing, and everything should be fine. *I've used Hall sensors for other projects, and every one I've seen has a ridiculously huge supply voltage range. ie, 4v to 30v.
Last edited by hooziewhatsit; 10/13/10 04:36 PM.
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: hooziewhatsit]
#662749
10/13/10 04:31 PM
10/13/10 04:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,951 Oregon
hooziewhatsit
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Here's a diagram showing how to test the hall sensors.
The wire colors on my Ford sensor are just what they seem to indicate: Red: Power Black: Ground Green: PIP signal
On my dodge sensor, the middle wire going into the sensor has a white tracer, and is ground. Otherwise, just hold the ford & dodge next to each other, and the pinouts are the same.
So if the Dodge 8 tooth wheel is identical to the Ford wheel (after making one tooth smaller), I don't see why we can't use that distributor as-is with a remote mount Ford TFI.
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: hooziewhatsit]
#662750
10/13/10 04:44 PM
10/13/10 04:44 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,951 Oregon
hooziewhatsit
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And a thoroughly bad picture showing the dodge & ford sensors and their outputs.
From left to right Power, ground, signal
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: hooziewhatsit]
#662751
10/13/10 04:45 PM
10/13/10 04:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533 Indiana
Fury Fan
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Coincidence! I was just thinking about this project again, I printed the whole thread out so I could review it tonight, then an email notification pops into my inbox. Cool! Here's the CAD drawing I have of the wheels. As I read the caption, there's some info that is a little confusing to me, so it will be to all of you also. The main thing is that 1 has a wide gap, 1 has a narrow gap, and IIRC the one gap needs to be narrowed with a file. I'll try to dig this stuff out in the next few days and re-familiarize myself, maybe I can explain it better.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: hooziewhatsit]
#662752
10/14/10 11:46 AM
10/14/10 11:46 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533 Indiana
Fury Fan
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Quote:
The plastic bushing that holds the Mag TBI wheel to the shaft can have its 4 plastic plugs drilled out removing the metal wheel from it. The bushing can then go upside down on the shaft, and the Ford key (with a larger hole) can fit on top and bolt to it. Things I still need figure out include the final installed height of the plastic bushing, and if I can use the roll pin hole where it is, or if it needs to go up or down.
If someone wanted to use a Ford wheel I think you could cut the teeth off the Mopar wheel and bolt the Ford wheel to the disc that remains -- and that might be a little more robust. Installation height and #1 orientation would have to be evaluated though. I don’t remember if the tooth height differs, but if the Ford teeth are too tall and rub the sensor plate they can be ground shorter as long as the sensor still sees a clean window/shutter effect. (I mocked up mounting the Ford wheel to a shaft collar that would clamp onto the shaft, thereby allowing any orientation/height that was required.)
Quote:
Fury Fan, do the 8 tooth wheels you have, have the same angle between all the teeth (except for #1 on the Ford of course)? It would be awesome if we could use otherwise 'off the shelf' parts, rather than needing to hack on another sensor if we need to install a new one. Make an adapter to go from the remote mount Ford TFI to the Dodge hall sensor. Everything just 'plugs in'
From an oddfire/evenfire perspective the teeth are spaced equally on both wheels with the exception of the oddball tooth/gap. However, the Mopar wheel has teeth that overall are a bit narrower than the Ford, and this will affect the system to an as-yet unknown degree (pun intended), because the coil is fired on the falling edge of the wheel, which will affect timing.
However, we’re gonna have 5.0 timing tables applied to either an A, B or RB engine, so there’s no reason to get concerned (yet) since we’re so far in left field (and at nighttime, too). Read the below snippet I got from another site:
Quote:
The signal output from the Hall sensor is called a Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) signal. There is one shutter that is skinny and this is how the EEC knows the #1 piston TDC position. This is also how the EEC knows where each cylinder is in the firing order due to monitoring the time rate between PIP signals (changing rpms) and the internal firing order data, which enables it to control sequentially the firing of the injectors. The EEC then sends a signal (SPOUT) back to the TFI module requesting to fire the coil. The EEC senses the coil ground for feedback that the coil has then actually fired. The coil fires on the falling edge of the SPOUT signal. The TFI also provides an internal SPOUT signal (based on the PIP signal) for limp home mode operation if the EEC has stopped sending the SPOUT. If the SPOUT plug is not inserted, spark timing remains at base timing during engine operation.
So here’s some theoretical diahrea: The narrower Mopar teeth will cause the spark to occur X degrees advanced due to the advanced falling edge (which would typically be compensated for with distributor orientation). But this could also theoretically affect fueling, as the EEC could think the wheel was moving faster than actual (it sees falling edges happening quicker than expected) and therefore think engine RPM was higher, and begin firing the injectors differently based on fueling and timing tables. (The angular velocity is the same between the wheels at a fixed RPM but the tooth-tip speed is different, and EEC has some awareness/expectations of that toothtip speed). But EEC would then have the feedback from coil firing and have info on the true RPM. But it could conceivably think the spark was ill-timed vs the teeth. What will it do if coil firing suggests 3000rpm but toothtip suggests 3200 (arbitrary numbers)? If fueling is OK and near stoich (which means no misfires) but toothtip speed vs coil suggests consistently incorrect timing, what would it do??? Did the Ford engineers anticipate this scenario and write a specific diagnostic/limp response for it???
As there is so much unknown regarding how well a ‘foreign’ engine will run with EEC’s tables and maps, I suggest we start out simple and not worry about problems until there are problems.
- Get a Mopar TBI dizzy, file a tooth narrower to reasonably emulate the Ford wheel, then either re-pin the wheel to point to Mopar #1 or re-lace the plug wires as needed (remember Ford’s #1 is different than Mopar #1, and re-lacing the dizzy wires might be easier).
- Install the rest of the system hardware – remote TFI, harness, fuel system, sensors, etc.
- see if it will start and idle.
If not, then diagnosis is in order, and using a Ford wheel in the dizzy might be required.
Whatever you guys do for modifying a dizzy and wheel, just remember to maintain the relationship between #1 piston at TDC, #1 wire going to #1 sparkplug, rotor pointing at #1 on dizzy cap, and Hall sensor aligns with falling edge on narrow tooth of the trigger wheel.
Here’s a good read: http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/EECIVInnerWorkings/
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Fury Fan]
#662753
12/12/10 01:48 AM
12/12/10 01:48 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,951 Oregon
hooziewhatsit
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Joined: Oct 2007
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I've been thinking about this again recently, and now I'm even more confused about the distributor Basically, I have no idea how the guy with the hybrid ford/dodge distributor has a running engine Since the rotor rotation is opposite between ford (CCW) & dodge (CW), and the odd tooth is not symmetrical, running the Ford distributor backwards will produce a different pulse train in relation to where the rotor is pointing. In the Ford engine, the rotor 'leads' the big gap (going CCW). Running backwards (CW in a dodge), the rotor would follow the big gap. And the small tooth would be on opposite edges. Now if you flipped the Ford wheel over, so the teeth are pointing up, then the pulse train would match the original engine when spinning CW. Does that make sense to anyone else? Since apparently running backwards is close enough to work, I'd bet that if we shaved the tooth on the mopar 8 tooth wheel, it'd work just fine I'm considering bolting together my 5.9l and making sure it'll idle before I build the 408. Then I'm not troubleshooting two new things at once (Cool firing order/rotation site: http://www.boxwrench.net/specs_index.htm )
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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