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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Fury Fan]
#662695
04/13/10 11:52 PM
04/13/10 11:52 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,951
Oregon
hooziewhatsit
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,951
Oregon
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Fury Fan, what diameter is the Ford key wheel? Will it fit in a mopar distributor at all? If it fits in the mopar dizzy, after looking at the picture wedgeman posted here, I'm sure I could find a way to mount a hall sensor in there; even if I need to cut a hole in the side of the distributor. 
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: hooziewhatsit]
#662696
04/14/10 08:34 AM
04/14/10 08:34 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Fury Fan
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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Well, I was hoping to be able to hand you guys the secret all at once on a silver platter, but I hit a hurdle on my end, so I’ll start spilling some beans.  The Magnum distributor functions as a cam sensor, hence the 180° wheel shown in the other thread, the Magnums use a Crank Position Sensor on the flexplate instead. Why they used 2 sensors is beyond me, they could have used a trigger wheel in the dizzy or a missing tooth on the flexplate and eliminated 1 sensor, which would surely have been a huge cost savings! Anyway, the distributor I have been looking at is from an 89-91 318 (or 90-92 360) TBI setup. Similar-looking sensor except the mounting tabs are different (they match the side screws of a points or electronic dizzy perfectly). And - this dizzy also uses an 8-tooth trigger wheel! The tooth spacing differs from the Ford wheel as I mentioned earlier, although I believe the ‘#1’ tooth can be filed narrower to emulate the Ford wheel. That’s job #2. The Ford wheel is approx 2.35” OD, the Dodge wheel is approx 2.1” OD. The Dodge wheel diameter is not compatible with the Ford sensor, at least they don’t seem to want to package together in the Mopar dizzy because the Ford dizzy is larger OD and the guts are bigger. Anyone that has a Ford and a Mopar dizzy, please see if you come up with any ideas on how to merge them. My plan was to install the TBI Hall and wheel in a B-RB dizzy, but this all hinges on whether the Dodge and Ford Halls are similar electrically (job #1). The hurdle I’ve hit is that the Ford takes a 12V input, the Dodge Magnum info I have shows it takes a 5V input and the wire colors differ from the TBI Hall I have. I want to be able to figure out how to test it, then put 12v into it and see if it blows the sensor. Hall sensors usually have a wide input voltage range, and it’s conceivable that Dodge used 5V as it was a standard sensor voltage and Ford used battery voltage instead. The sensor might not care what we feed it. Anyone have a Dodge TBI schematic for the Hall sensor??? I need to know the wire colors so that I can hook it up to my test meter. If this sensor can handle 12 volts, it might be the solution. There would still be some mods required, but we’ll cover that in the future if this sensor will work (job #1).
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Fury Fan]
#662697
04/14/10 09:13 AM
04/14/10 09:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Well, I was hoping to be able to hand you guys the secret all at once on a silver platter, but I hit a hurdle on my end, so I’ll start spilling some beans.
The Magnum distributor functions as a cam sensor, hence the 180° wheel shown in the other thread, the Magnums use a Crank Position Sensor on the flexplate instead. Why they used 2 sensors is beyond me, they could have used a trigger wheel in the dizzy or a missing tooth on the flexplate and eliminated 1 sensor, which would surely have been a huge cost savings!
Anyway, the distributor I have been looking at is from an 89-91 318 (or 90-92 360) TBI setup. Similar-looking sensor except the mounting tabs are different (they match the side screws of a points or electronic dizzy perfectly). And - this dizzy also uses an 8-tooth trigger wheel! The tooth spacing differs from the Ford wheel as I mentioned earlier, although I believe the ‘#1’ tooth can be filed narrower to emulate the Ford wheel. That’s job #2.
The Ford wheel is approx 2.35” OD, the Dodge wheel is approx 2.1” OD. The Dodge wheel diameter is not compatible with the Ford sensor, at least they don’t seem to want to package together in the Mopar dizzy because the Ford dizzy is larger OD and the guts are bigger. Anyone that has a Ford and a Mopar dizzy, please see if you come up with any ideas on how to merge them.
My plan was to install the TBI Hall and wheel in a B-RB dizzy, but this all hinges on whether the Dodge and Ford Halls are similar electrically (job #1). The hurdle I’ve hit is that the Ford takes a 12V input, the Dodge Magnum info I have shows it takes a 5V input and the wire colors differ from the TBI Hall I have. I want to be able to figure out how to test it, then put 12v into it and see if it blows the sensor. Hall sensors usually have a wide input voltage range, and it’s conceivable that Dodge used 5V as it was a standard sensor voltage and Ford used battery voltage instead. The sensor might not care what we feed it.
Anyone have a Dodge TBI schematic for the Hall sensor??? I need to know the wire colors so that I can hook it up to my test meter. If this sensor can handle 12 volts, it might be the solution. There would still be some mods required, but we’ll cover that in the future if this sensor will work (job #1).
or you could toss on a $250 carb and be done....lol 
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Andrewh]
#662701
04/14/10 10:56 AM
04/14/10 10:56 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Fury Fan
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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Congrats on moving that rock, you deserve a week off!  Yeah, Painless made a custom wheel, apparently not realizing there was an existing one available they probably could have used. There are a lot of similarities between SB (electronic, TBI and Maggie) and B/RB dizzys – even the old points type like Mr Yuck probably uses  The housing is the same but differs only in height. The Maggie has flat ears for mounting the sensor, all the others use 2 screws that go thru the sides of the housing. South of the insides of the housing the shafts are the same diameter and have the same drive tang. Inside the housing there are some differences between points and electronic, and between TBI and the Maggie, both in length and diameters. Another critical dimension is the overall shaft length. The upper diameter of a B/RB points dizzy is too small for the trigger wheel, so I need to disassemble an electronic version to measure it.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Fury Fan]
#662703
04/14/10 02:50 PM
04/14/10 02:50 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,951
Oregon
hooziewhatsit
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,951
Oregon
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Quote:
The Ford wheel is approx 2.35” OD, the Dodge wheel is approx 2.1” OD. The Dodge wheel diameter is not compatible with the Ford sensor, at least they don’t seem to want to package together in the Mopar dizzy because the Ford dizzy is larger OD and the guts are bigger. Anyone that has a Ford and a Mopar dizzy, please see if you come up with any ideas on how to merge them.
The hurdle I’ve hit is that the Ford takes a 12V input, the Dodge Magnum info I have shows it takes a 5V input and the wire colors differ from the TBI Hall I have. I want to be able to figure out how to test it, then put 12v into it and see if it blows the sensor. Hall sensors usually have a wide input voltage range, and it’s conceivable that Dodge used 5V as it was a standard sensor voltage and Ford used battery voltage instead. The sensor might not care what we feed it.
Anyone have a Dodge TBI schematic for the Hall sensor??? I need to know the wire colors so that I can hook it up to my test meter. If this sensor can handle 12 volts, it might be the solution. There would still be some mods required, but we’ll cover that in the future if this sensor will work (job #1).
So it looks like the Ford wheel will fit inside the mopar distributor, and the main problem is finding a sensor that will fit, correct?
After looking at Wedgemans picture again, it sure looks more like an photo interrupter than a hall sensor. Is the white thing on the inside magnetic? Any wires going to it? I don't suppose there are any part numbers on the actual sensor on the mopar sensor?
I was just looking at Hall Sensors at Digikey for a different project, and yes, most of them have a very wide input voltage range. Or if it is optical, we just need another resistor in series to limit the voltage and it should work just fine at 12v.
If there's room, it may be easiest to put the ford wheel in the mopar distributor, then I can make a Hall Effect/Optical sensor that mounts to the mopar plate, like this one., Or we get a flat wheel cut out and mount our own sensor in the distributor
Anyone have an extra magnum distributor they want to sell me cheap? I have a Ford one I can pull and compare, but I don't think the junkyard here even has any magnums 
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: hooziewhatsit]
#662704
04/14/10 03:44 PM
04/14/10 03:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Fury Fan
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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Quote:
So it looks like the Ford wheel will fit inside the mopar distributor, and the main problem is finding a sensor that will fit, correct?
Yes, but the hole in the Ford wheel does not match the Mopar shaft, it is smaller. Also, the Ford wheel screws down onto a hub/flange/plate, while the Mopar wheel has a collar that crosspins to the shaft. I presume the Ford wheel could be re-drilled larger and then tackwelded to a setscrew shaft collar, but I didn’t consider that route after finding the TBI dizzy, I focused on it instead.
Quote:
After looking at Wedgemans picture again, it sure looks more like an photo interrupter than a hall sensor. Is the white thing on the inside magnetic? Any wires going to it? I don't suppose there are any part numbers on the actual sensor on the mopar sensor?
The white thing on the inside is actually metal, it is reflective in the photoflash. I doubt it is magnetic or mine would surely be covered in metal dust by now, I think I would’ve noticed that. The wheel goes between the 2 outer black portions of the sensor, not near the ‘white’ part. Ford’s TFI is a Hall and has 3 wires, and this one has 3 wires, so I presumed they were the same type of sensor. I learned a little more here: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/pickups.htm
Quote:
I was just looking at Hall Sensors at Digikey for a different project, and yes, most of them have a very wide input voltage range. Or if it is optical, we just need another resistor in series to limit the voltage and it should work just fine at 12v.
Quote:
If there's room, it may be easiest to put the ford wheel in the mopar distributor, then I can make a Hall Effect/Optical sensor that mounts to the mopar plate, like this one., Or we get a flat wheel cut out and mount our own sensor in the distributor
Yeah, a small add-on sensor of the right specs might be a simple solution, but you’d still need to mount it. If the TBI or Mag sensor work out, the mounting is built in. We will eventually narrow down to the best solution!
Quote:
Anyone have an extra magnum distributor they want to sell me cheap? I have a Ford one I can pull and compare, but I don't think the junkyard here even has any magnums
See if this link works:
http://www.car-part.com/cgi-bin/search.c...amp;userPage=75
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Fury Fan]
#662706
04/14/10 10:09 PM
04/14/10 10:09 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,951
Oregon
hooziewhatsit
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,951
Oregon
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Thanks for the link (it did work). I'll just have to get the distributors together and see what I can come up with. Maybe that will answer most of my questions I'm leaving tomorrow for a 10 day business trip, so I'll have to wait to dive into it until I get back 
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Fury Fan]
#662710
04/16/10 04:44 PM
04/16/10 04:44 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,958
Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,958
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
You are correct, there is no ‘need’ for most people, it’s a ‘want’ -- just like other things. Drum brakes and points ignitions and single-field alternators are quite functional, yet people install discs and halogen headlights and MSD boxes and other stuff. Because we want to.
After working on & racing FWD turbo mopars for over 10 years going back to my RWD roots was a painful experiance!
A well tuned carb is a wonderful thing but can't hold a candle to a well tuned EFI system.
My 67 Dart will have multi-port EFI with a Megasquirt controller.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: gdonovan]
#662712
04/16/10 05:31 PM
04/16/10 05:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
You are correct, there is no ‘need’ for most people, it’s a ‘want’ -- just like other things. Drum brakes and points ignitions and single-field alternators are quite functional, yet people install discs and halogen headlights and MSD boxes and other stuff. Because we want to.
After working on & racing FWD turbo mopars for over 10 years going back to my RWD roots was a painful experiance!
A well tuned carb is a wonderful thing but can't hold a candle to a well tuned EFI system.
My 67 Dart will have multi-port EFI with a Megasquirt controller.
hahahahahahahah ok. EFI was developed for emissions. Don't fool yourself. Injection is nice to have but it in no way is any better for performance applications that a carb. If it was sooo great every swingin' Richard would have it on his "saturday night special".
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#662713
04/16/10 06:17 PM
04/16/10 06:17 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,958
Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,958
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
hahahahahahahah ok. EFI was developed for emissions. Don't fool yourself. Injection is nice to have but it in no way is any better for performance applications that a carb. If it was sooo great every swingin' Richard would have it on his "saturday night special".
What-ever, I'm not going to get in a flamefest with some fool on a board.
A properly setup EFI system will beat the hell out of carb any day of the week. Been there and done it for the last 10+ years.
Cost and complexity keeps it out of reach of most people.
Keep your stone age tech if that is what pleases you, I assume you run drum brakes and points too.
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Re: 5.9 efi a different way
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#662714
04/16/10 08:00 PM
04/16/10 08:00 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@#$%&*!
New user name, Same old jerk!
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New user name, Same old jerk!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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Quote:
...EFI was developed for emissions...
Fuel Injection came out in the '50's, long before anyone cared about emissions. You clearly don't know what the heck you're talking about. Computerized fuel control is so much better than a carb that caburetors are obsolete. 
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I was contemplating adding a crank wheel (DIYAutotune.com has universal 36-1 wheels you can get already machined, fyi) and grinding all but 1 terminal off of my reluctor in my distributor for a cam signal and realigning the pickup for proper cam signal timing. But this looks way easier 
