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If you use the "car is the manual" theory, then I guess all cars would be a winner in OEM judging based on using that thought. You have to have a standard to judge against based on what is correct for the majority of the cars built.

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Why would you "guess" anything about a program that you have already admitted, "I personally have absolutely no interest in restoring a car with the intentions of having it judged in an OE or any other kind of class....."? Just because a car has original characteristics doesn't automatically mean that it will be restored to represent exactly what it was! Why not use the same logic regarding the "Manual" you keep ranting about!?! If you think that having an original car guarantees that a person will automatically get a Gold award, do you also think that having a "Manual" will automatically guarantee a Gold award because someone has access to it? Simply having or using a "guideline" doesn't guarantee anything but the fact that you simply have access to a "guideline"! The work still has to be PROPERLY performed....does it not? The correct interpretation of the original characteristics still has to be documented and put back in place...do they not? Having a car as the "Manual" doesn't guarantee a Gold certification just like a reference "Manual" wouldn't guarantee anything! That would be like saying that because students have a book/manual to refer to, they are guaranteed to get an "A" in their class. Students have ALL the "Manuals" necessary to make "A's" yet the majority of them still fall short of the mark! WHY? Because the COMMITMENT and WORK still has to be provided by the individual!

Once again, your statement, "I personally have absolutely no interest in restoring a car with the intentions of having it judged in an OE or any other kind of class....." comes through LOUD and clear with regards to you NOT being able to understand the OE concept. There can be no Manual for OE restorations....PERIOD! If you ever decide to just take an hour to investigate what you keep trying to convey, YOU WOULD NO LONGER TRY TO CONVEY IT!!! With all due respect, you have no inkling as to what you are trying to argue about and defend.

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You seldom reply to what I have actually asked and always take things from context and blow it out of proportion, twist it, and never directly answer the questions I ask of you without some typical rant.

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What a joke! Your "POLL" isn't even a "proper" Poll! Why should anyone take heed to your instructions? You have consistently ignored the words of everyone else! Whats the matter Darryl? Does looking in the mirror really bother you that much? The bottom line is that you want the prize but are unwilling to pay the price! Shortcuts and hurry up procedures in an OE Manual....how pathetic! You have been given every statistical fact by those who are involved with the program and STILL can't comprehend a thing.
Why not start a POLL or thread about the Easter Bunny? Today is the perfect day for it and your babbling about other imaginary concepts would be a perfect parallel for the occasion!

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Even if you stop posting here you are bound to continue to recieve rhetorical e-mails and PM's, the guy lives in his own little twisted world.

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Have you received them too? (Sorry this is so long!) Take a look at the one he sent me the other day. No matter how many times you address his questions he acts as if he never hears you and continues to keep blabbering the same garbage over and over and over. He reminds me of Dustin Hoffman when he played "Raymond" in the movie "Rain-Man." I made it absolutely clear that no OE Judges at the Nationals were involved with ANY of the restorations that they judged. This goofball continues to spread incorrect gossip and rumors about the OE program and its purpose. According to Darryl (aka Raymond) the OE judging team is comprised of Roger Gibson, Mauro Brocca, Patrick Lyons, Paul Jacobs, Dave Stuart, Steve Been, Mike Mancini, etc..... This is odd because I am 100% positive that the OE Judging team is made up of Keith Rohm, Matt, Dan and Joy. I can also guarantee that they do not restore ANY of the cars they judge. This guy thinks there is a conspiracy to make the cars more valuable by giving them phony judging awards! I must have missed out on all of that when I entered!

He also so tries to make it sound as if it is some sort of exclusive/secret club. I find that quite peculiar!? I didn't know anyone involved with the OE program in 2003 and simply walked up to the judging team and asked for a sign up sheet to enter in 2005. They politely gave me a form and a sheet telling me what I had to do and I did it! Nothing hard or secret whatsoever.

Notice his last remarks. He obviously wants to make the OE program a NON-OE Program. He apparently is enamored with the Corvette Judging Program which is completely opposite to the Mopar Nationals OE program. He keeps insisting on "Manuals" to use as a guideline. I did a Google search and found MANY manuals on how to restore Mopar vehicles! There was PROJECT CHARGER by Larry Lyles, CHARGER, ROADRUNNER & SUPER BEE RESTORATION GUIDE by Paul Herd, CHALLENGER & BARRACUDA RESTORATION GUIDE by Paul Herd, etc.... There are DOZENS of restoration guides but this guy is too lazy to spend the time to find and research them! Instead he wants to lower the bar so he can sit back and play connect the dots with a "cookie cutter" book about Mopars. When a car is judged in the OE class it is all about THE UNPUBLISHED INDIVIDUAL ASPECTS of the vehicle. Every car has differences that NO MANUAL can provide specific instructions about! THAT IS WHAT MAKES OE JUDGING WHAT IT IS! This guy can't seem to get that SIMPLE point. He doesn't really want to change the OE venue! He just wants to make it blend in with every other judged event. I wonder if he goes into Burger King and demands that they turn themselves into a McDonald's restaurant?! The only person that needs to be open minded here is Darryl! I didn't try to change the OE venue to accommodate my agenda....I simply researched what it was about and did what was necessary to be involved! This poor guy doesn't have an inkling as to what is going on in the OE program. The only person being "pig headed" is Porky Pi...uh... I mean...uh...Darryl.

Enjoy his warped rationale!

"I have been chuckling at how much this thread has been eating at you. I am sure that the voting is just killing you. That is enough for me to see that I am not the only one that is aware of what was/is going on with the Mopar Nationals OEM judging. It is pretty much a joke amongst the rest of the collector car hobby that the awards hold little value to those people because there is no real "standard" that the car is truely judged against. Awards given to cars by favoritism by judges judging cars that THEY restored for others for profit doesn't hold much value for these collectors unless they were not aware of what was going on. This is EXACTLY what the owners of these cars hope for when they restore, and have their car judged by the guy that did the work for them with the intentions of advertising for sale their "1st place Mopar Nationals OEM award winning car."

As I said in the beginning, this was common knowledge before you were ever on the scene. Maybe SOME of it has changed but from the posts on Moparts on this subject in the last month I have to believe that a lot of the things people were complaining about 10 years ago are still a problem today. Go back and look at the questions I asked in all these threads and notice how the responses are PARTIAL to my questions and how people only respond to what has changed and say nothing about the things that are obviously still a problem.

It makes no difference if I or anyone else want to have a car judged in OEM competition or not, everyone that wants to buy a manual to inspect, repair, restore their car for their own satisfaction should be able to buy one. It is this way with other makes so why should the judging criteria for the Mopar Nationals be only for the "secret squirrel club?" There is only one REAL answer to that is there.

Do yourself a favor an look at the NCRS judging format, manuals, and their phylosophy regarding all of this. It is all about what is the best thing for the hobby, not the individual. They judge against a standard and have top and secondary flights of awards so that ALL cars have the potential to receive a top flight award. It seems to me that the Mopar Nationals is all about who has the best judged car for a particular year.

Be a little open minded about this rather that so pig headed."

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Even if you stop posting here you are bound to continue to recieve rhetorical e-mails and PM's, the guy lives in his own little twisted world.

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Have you received them too? (Sorry this is so long!) Take a look at the one he sent me the other day. No matter how many times you address his questions he acts as if he never hears you and continues to keep blabbering the same garbage over and over and over. He reminds me of Dustin Hoffman when he played "Raymond" in the movie "Rain-Man." I made it absolutely clear that no OE Judges at the Nationals were involved with ANY of the restorations that they judged. This goofball continues to spread incorrect gossip and rumors about the OE program and its purpose. According to Darryl (aka Raymond) the OE judging team is comprised of Roger Gibson, Mauro Brocca, Patrick Lyons, Paul Jacobs, Dave Stuart, Steve Been, Mike Mancini, etc..... This is odd because I am 100% positive that the OE Judging team is made up of Keith Rohm, Matt, Dan and Joy. I can also guarantee that they do not restore ANY of the cars they judge. This guy thinks there is a conspiracy to make the cars more valuable by giving them phony judging awards! I must have missed out on all of that when I entered!

He also so tries to make it sound as if it is some sort of exclusive/secret club. I find that quite peculiar!? I didn't know anyone involved with the OE program in 2003 and simply walked up to the judging team and asked for a sign up sheet to enter in 2005. They politely gave me a form and a sheet telling me what I had to do and I did it! Nothing hard or secret whatsoever.

Notice his last remarks. He obviously wants to make the OE program a NON-OE Program. He apparently is enamored with the Corvette Judging Program which is completely opposite to the Mopar Nationals OE program. He keeps insisting on "Manuals" to use as a guideline. I did a Google search and found MANY manuals on how to restore Mopar vehicles! There was PROJECT CHARGER by Larry Lyles, CHARGER, ROADRUNNER & SUPER BEE RESTORATION GUIDE by Paul Herd, CHALLENGER & BARRACUDA RESTORATION GUIDE by Paul Herd, etc.... There are DOZENS of restoration guides but this guy is too lazy to spend the time to find and research them! Instead he wants to lower the bar so he can sit back and play connect the dots with a "cookie cutter" book about Mopars. When a car is judged in the OE class it is all about THE UNPUBLISHED INDIVIDUAL ASPECTS of the vehicle. Every car has differences that NO MANUAL can provide specific instructions about! THAT IS WHAT MAKES OE JUDGING WHAT IT IS! This guy can't seem to get that SIMPLE point. He doesn't really want to change the OE venue! He just wants to make it blend in with every other judged event. I wonder if he goes into Burger King and demands that they turn themselves into a McDonald's restaurant?! The only person that needs to be open minded here is Darryl! I didn't try to change the OE venue to accommodate my agenda....I simply researched what it was about and did what was necessary to be involved! This poor guy doesn't have an inkling as to what is going on in the OE program. The only person being "pig headed" is Porky Pi...uh... I mean...uh...Darryl.

Enjoy his warped rationale!

"I have been chuckling at how much this thread has been eating at you. I am sure that the voting is just killing you. That is enough for me to see that I am not the only one that is aware of what was/is going on with the Mopar Nationals OEM judging. It is pretty much a joke amongst the rest of the collector car hobby that the awards hold little value to those people because there is no real "standard" that the car is truely judged against. Awards given to cars by favoritism by judges judging cars that THEY restored for others for profit doesn't hold much value for these collectors unless they were not aware of what was going on. This is EXACTLY what the owners of these cars hope for when they restore, and have their car judged by the guy that did the work for them with the intentions of advertising for sale their "1st place Mopar Nationals OEM award winning car."

As I said in the beginning, this was common knowledge before you were ever on the scene. Maybe SOME of it has changed but from the posts on Moparts on this subject in the last month I have to believe that a lot of the things people were complaining about 10 years ago are still a problem today. Go back and look at the questions I asked in all these threads and notice how the responses are PARTIAL to my questions and how people only respond to what has changed and say nothing about the things that are obviously still a problem.

It makes no difference if I or anyone else want to have a car judged in OEM competition or not, everyone that wants to buy a manual to inspect, repair, restore their car for their own satisfaction should be able to buy one. It is this way with other makes so why should the judging criteria for the Mopar Nationals be only for the "secret squirrel club?" There is only one REAL answer to that is there.

Do yourself a favor an look at the NCRS judging format, manuals, and their phylosophy regarding all of this. It is all about what is the best thing for the hobby, not the individual. They judge against a standard and have top and secondary flights of awards so that ALL cars have the potential to receive a top flight award. It seems to me that the Mopar Nationals is all about who has the best judged car for a particular year.

Be a little open minded about this rather that so pig headed."

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THIS IS A BOLD FACE LIE...REPEAT BOLD FACE LIE.

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You are either mentally ill or have some form of Dementia. That bold print quote (of yours) that I posted is EXACTLY; word for word; letter for letter what you sent to me in your first of four private messages. No one ever said that you mentioned anyone "specifically" regarding OE judges! Look at your first paragraph in that quote. YOU said that the judges at the Nationals were judging their own work. In order for that to be true, the people I refereed to (Roger Gibson, Mauro Brocca, Patrick Lyons, Paul Jacobs, Dave Stuart, Steve Been, Mike Mancini, etc.....) would have been the judges. THEY are the people who have been restoring the vehicles that get OE judged. Rather than play your little game Darryl why don't you take a moment to clear up and explain what you meant when you said:

"....Awards given to cars by favoritism by judges judging cars that THEY restored for others for profit doesn't hold much value for these collectors unless they were not aware of what was going on. This is EXACTLY what the owners of these cars hope for when they restore, and have their car judged by the guy that did the work for them with the intentions of advertising for sale their "1st place Mopar Nationals OEM award winning car."

Who are you referring to when you say "judges judging cars that THEY restored"? If you read it the way it was written you are saying that the person who restores the car, also judges the car, which would make them an OE judge at the Nationals!

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THIS IS A BOLD FACE LIE...REPEAT BOLD FACE LIE.

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You are either mentally ill or have some form of Dementia. That bold print quote (of yours) that I posted is EXACTLY; word for word; letter for letter what you sent to me in your first of four private messages. No one ever said that you mentioned anyone "specifically" regarding OE judges! Look at your first paragraph in that quote. YOU said that the judges at the nationals were judging their own work. In order for that to be true, the people I refereed to (Roger Gibson, Mauro Brocca, Patrick Lyons, Paul Jacobs, Dave Stuart, Steve Been, Mike Mancini, etc.....) would have been the judges. THEY are the people who have been restoring the vehicles that get OE judged. Rather than play your little game Darryl why don't you take a moment to clear up and explain what you meant when you said:

"....Awards given to cars by favoritism by judges judging cars that THEY restored for others for profit doesn't hold much value for these collectors unless they were not aware of what was going on. This is EXACTLY what the owners of these cars hope for when they restore, and have their car judged by the guy that did the work for them with the intentions of advertising for sale their "1st place Mopar Nationals OEM award winning car."

Who are you referring to when you say "judges judging cars that THEY restored"? If you read it the way it was written you are saying that the person who restores the car, also judges the car, which would make them an OE judge at the Nationals!

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1. First of all it is NOT exactly what was in that PM as you are trying to portray it as a rant. It was a point by point answer to YOUR PM to me.

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....but there isn't any clear-cut book from what I can understand. The judges have a criteria that's based and formed from their experiences. Is that anywhere near the truth Dave?

Troy

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...I hope this helps explain some of the OE specifics.

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does the nationals judging have a judging sheet? Yes I believe so.

and if so is it available to the public?

No , I don't believe it is

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It's kind of like my wife's baking competition shows; they all have to make a cake and the cake has certain criteria and basic ingredients, but it's how the baker puts it all together that counts. It's up to the baker to figure out what's best and what's not.

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Thank you Troy! FINALLY.....there is someone who is starting to finally understand the concept of OE Judging! I am going to answer both you and Tony's question in this post.
There ARE published manuals for how to ("Restoring Mopars for Dummies") do these cars. When I did a Google search I found DOZENS of reference "Manuals" on how to restore a Mopar. The problem with those is that you have no way of knowing if their reference material is 100% correct! The only way to determine if it is accurate would be to research and document factory vehicles for yourself! THAT IS WHAT MAKES THE OE VENUE WHAT IT IS!!! That is the "challenge" for the OE participants. I will use the skating analogy once again. If it was left up to Darryl, he would have every skater doing the EXACT same thing with no variations in their presentation. The same applies with these cars! Every car is restored to "normal" protocol but the individual characteristics OF THE VEHICLE is what separates them from ALL of the other Chrysler vehicles manufactured.

To answer Mr. Tony D...you receive a score report after the the car has been judged but there is no judging sheet provided BEFORE it has been judged. All the pre-sheet would consist of is blank categories that listed things like "ENGINE COMPARTMENT'..."INTERIOR COMPONENTS"..."SUSPENSION COMPONENTS"...ETC.... There is nothing to judge until the vehicle shows up at the show to be judged! I have been involved with all types of judging venues. Once I became involved with OE Judging I knew that it would be a totally different ball of wax. Steve Been and I set out (all across the country) to research as many original vehicles as we could. I NEVER thought about trying to find shortcuts or use "someone else's" work because I KNEW that we were embarking in a totally new area of restoration! OE judging/Restoration is a process! It is not some list of "follow the dots" to make every car look the same. If people like Darryl do not like the OE venue, GO FIND AN EASIER VENUE TO PARTICIPATE IN! Think about it Tony. If every car attempted to meet a stringent set of rules or guidelines, it wouldn't be THE original car that it started out as! All you would end up with is a bunch of vehicles that all looked the same, with the same features, the same inspection marks, the same detail nuances, and on and on! That is not what OE Competition is about. Why would anyone want to change it? If you change it, then it will no longer be OE!