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Re: stage-ing advantages. on the tree...whats your opinion?
[Re: dvw]
#602240
02/04/10 02:32 AM
02/04/10 02:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
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Balt. Md
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I usually only race my 63 a few times a year and some of them are just T & T's. But I still like to work on my lites. I just foot brake and most of the time its a full tree but I have tried a pro tree. My local track runs a .5 tenths tree on the full tree and I have found the happy spot for my 63 at that track. Last 2 times at that track my worst lite has been an .041 but the last time my 2 passes were .028 and .007. I leave as soon as I see the third yellow and it works great since I shallow stage by just turning the stage bulb on. Thats with just SS springs and stock suspension. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 02/04/10 02:33 AM.
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Re: stage-ing advantages. on the tree...whats your opinion?
[Re: SportF]
#602242
02/04/10 11:07 PM
02/04/10 11:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,499
Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
master
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master
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Posts: 7,499
Minnesota
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In Bracket racing, you win by having a quicker rt and not breaking out. Deep staging gives you a better rt and a slower et, still getting to the stripe at the same time. Why isn't that better? 
[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: stage-ing advantages. on the tree...whats your opinion?
[Re: SportF]
#602243
02/04/10 11:10 PM
02/04/10 11:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,257
acworth / N. georgia - south e...
cheapstreetdustr
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acworth / N. georgia - south e...
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best thing i can tell you is to get one of those
wheel driven measureing devices.
we did it yrs back...putting cardboard in the center of the spokes so it would trip the stage beams at your local track.
then slowly roll it forward to stage..
check your measurement..then roll it till the beams drop it..and youll have the distance..
for your local track anyway..
but it will give you an idea and a base to put into your practice tree roll out..
cheapst.
365" Iron J heads,,3480lbs best 1.39 60ft on SS springs.10.54,124 mph ...6.67 1/8th et.average 60fts 1.46 w/ small cam &.063 no2 pill tagged & insured
[image][/image]
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Re: stage-ing advantages. on the tree...whats your opinion?
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#602246
02/05/10 06:07 AM
02/05/10 06:07 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
In Bracket racing, you win by having a quicker rt and not breaking out. Deep staging gives you a better rt and a slower et, still getting to the stripe at the same time. Why isn't that better?
You can still have a .00X reaction time weather it be
deep or shallow staged... but with a deep stage you
dont get any roll time before you start the clock,
where as if you shallow stage you start the roll a
little sooner(on the tree) to start the clock when
you will have "some" speed already.... I myself have
to shallow stage just so I dont go red and thats even
with the last yellow on full and JUST going out...
sure I could change my starting line procedure like
lowering the launch rpm but I like it to react quickly
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Re: stage-ing advantages. on the tree...whats your opinion?
[Re: cheapstreetdustr]
#602247
02/05/10 04:04 PM
02/05/10 04:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,934
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 16,934
NC
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I don't think any of those are an advantage. You just have to cut a good light (RT) and predict your ET. Find what works for you and your car and be consistant, every time. Practice, practice, practice.
If you can't cut a good reaction time, change the car (tire size/pressure, converter, suspension, etc.) Unless you have a delay box and top bulb the tree, that allows you to dial-in the rest of the reaction time (except for the driver's reaction time).
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Re: stage-ing advantages. on the tree...whats your opinion?
[Re: 440Jim]
#602248
02/05/10 04:47 PM
02/05/10 04:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26,022
United Socialist States of Ame...
tboomer
Too Many Posts
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Posts: 26,022
United Socialist States of Ame...
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Quote:
I don't think any of those are an advantage. You just have to cut a good light (RT) and predict your ET. Find what works for you and your car and be consistant, every time. Practice, practice, practice.
If you can't cut a good reaction time, change the car (tire size/pressure, converter, suspension, etc.) Unless you have a delay box and top bulb the tree, that allows you to dial-in the rest of the reaction time (except for the driver's reaction time).
Need your rear end checked out? Contact Grizzly!!
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Re: stage-ing advantages. on the tree...whats your opinion?
[Re: cheapstreetdustr]
#602252
02/06/10 11:54 AM
02/06/10 11:54 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 686
PA
ajcasini
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 686
PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Here is a link to Michael Beards website explaining the starting line. It can't be explained any better than Mike explains it.
http://www.staginglight.com/guide/react.html
while i agree that guy explains it for those whe may not fully understand it...
this is only addressing reaction time..
not any advantage..
i am talking about gaining advantages....
cheapst.
The only advantage to be gained is ET related. Staging strategies are a combination of driver and vehicle reaction time. So with two variables there are alot of possibilities. So lets take one out. The Driver, lets say our driver leaves when the 3rd yellow comes on, same time every time. Now we are dealing with only the vehicle. If we have a slow reacting vehicle deep staging provides a Reaction advantage because the car does not have to cover the full 7" to break the stage beam and trigger the RT beam. If you have a car that takes .350s to initiate the RT beam Shallow Staged and our driver, a fixed variable takes .230s to react to the third yellow, our best RT possible is a .580 which will get you trailered early. Now enter Deep Stageing. Our slow reacting vehicle now has to cover less ground to break the reaction time beam. So back to the numbers our car will take .300s to break the beam and our driver, fixed variable at .230s, now our RT would be .530 which will put you in the hunt.
The other variable is the driver and this variable can make changes to his spot on the tree to make the same type of adjustments. However the driver is not a mechanical piece and does not repeat as well as a mechanical vehicle. If the driver gets to a point where he is anticipating the third yellow in order to have a good reaction time bad things can occur. (RED LIGHT, MISS THE SPOT, Etc..)
I have done everything from Shallow, to Bumping Once, Twice, even three times, to deep, and even deep plus a little more. These are all with different vehicles that react differently.
The reason I adjust my staging procedures is have a very comfortable 'spot' on the tree. I do not adjust myself for RT rather adjust the car by how I stage it. The hardest spot to be in as mentioned before is the land where you are .550 shallow and .480 Deep. This is where you have to bump after you are shallow.
I am no expert but have been around a while and love the numbers of the sport.
The way you stage the car only affect vehicle RT and ET. In a bracket race you know what your ET will be based on your staging procedure. I do not know anyone that has gone shallow in Rd 1 and deep in rd 2???
The only part of the sport where staging procedure can win or lose you a race is in heads up competition. It is better to be as shallow as possible as this will net the quickest ET possible. IF you have a Top Fuel Race and one driver goes deep and the other shallow it could play out like this.
Lane 1 Lane 2 (Deep)
RT .050 .020
ET 3.800 3.840
MPH 305.00 305.00
W Lane 1 .010 MOV
If Lane 2 had been shallow as well it could have played out differently.
Lane 1 Lane 2
RT .050 .040
ET 3.800 3.800
MPH 305.00 305.00
W Lane 2 .010 MOV
The deep staging slowed his ET die to not having the 'rolling start as his opponent'. It also picks up the RT but not enough to overcome the loss in ET.
In Scenario 2 both shallow the drives RT slows but ET picks up and he wins the race.
I know this is a lot to read but in a normal bracket race the Shallow vs Deep provides no distinct advantage. The shallow stager knows what his car runs shallow and has his RT tuned for the procedure and car. The Deep stager knows what his car runs deep and has his RT tuned for the procedure and car. You will not see a bracket racer switch throught the day from Shallow to Deep to try and gain an advantage over an opponent.
Hope some of this helps.
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Re: stage-ing advantages. on the tree...whats your opinion?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#602254
02/06/10 11:22 PM
02/06/10 11:22 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,257
acworth / N. georgia - south e...
cheapstreetdustr
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Posts: 6,257
acworth / N. georgia - south e...
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when i first built this duster it was for heads up MNCA..(top 8 in points back then fwiw.toot,toot)
so some of my thinking in the first part of my arguement was based on that.
i posted mostly to just start a conversation. on the subject ..an hear from others with opinions.
while recent yrs ive bracket raced..i didnt really ..fully include that in my thinking...
i agree..about the bracket issues...
and there is probably little to no advantage with a shallow stage..since you still have to hit your et ..waxed on the windshield..
i do however want to expound on the staggerd wheel or extended rollout..
basing this on the aforemention'd mechanics
the clock starts on the back of your front tire.
and stops off the front.
so lets take a car (left lane) with staggerd front wheels giving you a mechanical roll out of 14" .
and a car in the (right lane) with a conventional roll out of 11"
if both cars hit a identical reaction time..and ran the identical et.
the car in the left lane would click the win light..because its front wheels would be 3" infront of the car in the right lane.
cheapst.
365" Iron J heads,,3480lbs best 1.39 60ft on SS springs.10.54,124 mph ...6.67 1/8th et.average 60fts 1.46 w/ small cam &.063 no2 pill tagged & insured
[image][/image]
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Re: stage-ing advantages. on the tree...whats your opinion?
[Re: cheapstreetdustr]
#602255
02/07/10 12:32 AM
02/07/10 12:32 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 686
PA
ajcasini
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 686
PA
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There is no mathmatical way that if two drivers regardless of stage or rollout have an identical et ( I am talking as far out as the computer goes) that you could determine a winner. The other car would not arrive 3" ahead of the other. If he were to arrive 3" ahead of the other his et would be quicker. Regardless of the rollout the back of the tire still starts the clocks and the front stops them. I see where you would think that this woudl occur being I have a 3" advantage off the line. However the front tires would need to hit the stripe at the exact same time to have the exact same ET. There woudl be an advantage in ET for the guy with the 3" stagger this does not however affect the position of the front tire in relation to the opponent regardless of stagger. 
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Re: stage-ing advantages. on the tree...whats your opinion?
[Re: ajcasini]
#602257
02/07/10 11:24 PM
02/07/10 11:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,257
acworth / N. georgia - south e...
cheapstreetdustr
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acworth / N. georgia - south e...
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i started this post to get a dialogue going on this topic... i am glad i did...its changed my thinking\ Quote:
There is no mathmatical way that if two drivers regardless of stage or rollout have an identical et ( I am talking as far out as the computer goes) that you could determine a winner. The other car would not arrive 3" ahead of the other. If he were to arrive 3" ahead of the other his et would be quicker.
Regardless of the rollout the back of the tire still starts the clocks and the front stops them. I see where you would think that this woudl occur being I have a 3" advantage off the line. However the front tires would need to hit the stripe at the exact same time to have the exact same ET.
There woudl be an advantage in ET for the guy with the 3" stagger this does not however affect the position of the front tire in relation to the opponent regardless of stagger.
i beleive your right...
again i keep getting stuck in the first to the stripe is the winner....frame of mind.
i succeed..
in heads up my stagger theory should be correct though...as far as a slight advantage...
fwiw..
cheapst
365" Iron J heads,,3480lbs best 1.39 60ft on SS springs.10.54,124 mph ...6.67 1/8th et.average 60fts 1.46 w/ small cam &.063 no2 pill tagged & insured
[image][/image]
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Re: stage-ing advantages. on the tree...whats your opinion?
[Re: Rodney]
#602259
02/08/10 12:24 PM
02/08/10 12:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Is it possible if a car shallow stages, for the front wheels to come off the track so quickly that the beams are not broken until the rear wheels pass through?
I've seen this happen, or thought I did at our track some time ago.
the RT indicated so by a poor RT but then again could have simply been an error in the timing system?
has anyone seen this?
the beams are broken when the tire moves out of the beam, not when something passes through.
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It works on some and not on others 
By shallow staging your racing a lttle further distance (the differences in inches in between shallow and deep staging) than your deep staged opponent. The timers start when the botton stage lights go out so less rolling start results in a slower ET and possibly a better reaction time on a slow leaving car. lots of things to think about when bracket racing 
Heads up racing, fastets cars with best drivers when every time 
I wish I could afford to run a heads up car