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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: CRE2004]
#601780
02/03/10 07:30 AM
02/03/10 07:30 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I'am not being a smart a$$ but I call BS.When you bush them all your doing is making them all the same size.The angle is not going to change.
I have bushed hundreds of them all. I can plot the bore locations with the renishaw probe and show you just how bad they are. I can plot the locations of both the top and bottom of the bore and calculate the error in the angle. As Jimi says, they are all horrible. What most fail to consider is that with the current crop of fast rate of lift flat tappet cams putting the lobe out right to the edge of the lifter, the block geometry has to be as precise as the cam is ground. Ma Mopar was the WORST of the big three as far as factory machining.
Now imagine how many flat tappet failures have been blamed on the cam and or lifters when the block is really the culprit.  I laugh when I'm at COMP cams looking at how accurate the cams are ground knowing they'll be put in some 40yr old POS block  And if you think stuffing a roller in is the fix, think about how moving the bore .020 from the center line and changing the angle of the lifter 1 degree affects valve timing events  Now imagine having 16 different variations of that and look at the incremental power you are leaving on the table. 
Mike,
While you're here, I've got a few of questions.
Would you recommend bushing the lifter bores on a mild 400 horsepower street 400/451 stroker?
What's the longevity of the bronze bushings? Might they last 100k miles or more in the said street engine if properly maintained?
My only real concern with the bushings is if they ever came loose from the block.
Thanks in advance for the insight.
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: 8secDart]
#601781
02/03/10 08:02 AM
02/03/10 08:02 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 428
wappinger falls new york
Jimi_Vignogna
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 428
wappinger falls new york
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Quote:
I'am not being a smart a$$ but I call BS.When you bush them all your doing is making them all the same size.The angle is not going to change.
that is because you are not educated on this subject(not being a smart a$$)  . the angle does certainly change! i have seen net gains of 14 average hp on the dyno in my stocker engine from correcting the improper lifter angularity from the poor machining from chrysler. i would challenge you to remove the un bushed engine from your car dissasemble it and check the event at each valve and tell me if it is bs.
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: camdog440]
#601783
02/03/10 08:21 AM
02/03/10 08:21 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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The ones I've measured are between .906 and .907. I know it leaves a little power on the table but when I spec a lobe I don't use the ".904" profiles for that reason. They mandate everything else be to blueprint condition and most customers don't want to spend the extra coin. So I'll run a fast rate ford lifter profile and have that little bit of wiggle room (pun intended). I think if it's an all out deal then definately go as fast a rate of lift as you can but spend the cash to get the lifter bores perfect. I bush evey roller cam engine, more for safety and reliability than power, but even then I get beat up for being too "big dollar"...lol. The saddest truth is aside from the ignorance, many builders simply don't measure the lifter bore, never mind having the equipment to verify proper angles.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: camdog440]
#601784
02/03/10 08:27 AM
02/03/10 08:27 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
What is the typical cost of having the lifter bores bushed?
It will differ in areas around the country but here
its $400-$500
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: CompSyn]
#601787
02/03/10 07:37 PM
02/03/10 07:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
CRE2004
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
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Quote:
Mike,
While you're here, I've got a few of questions.
Would you recommend bushing the lifter bores on a mild 400 horsepower street 400/451 stroker?
Depends upon what cam gets installed. Most likely not on a mild build but keep in mind a lifter bush job is less expensive than a full rebuild from a wiped cam if going flat tappet.
Quote:
What's the longevity of the bronze bushings? Might they last 100k miles or more in the said street engine if properly maintained?
Ampco bronze needs less lubrication than cast iron to not wear. As long as there is pressurized oil to the lifters, I don't see a longevity issue on a street car.
Quote:
My only real concern with the bushings is if they ever came loose from the block.
Thanks in advance for the insight.
They are pressed in and we use a sleeve locker 
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: CRE2004]
#601789
02/04/10 07:17 AM
02/04/10 07:17 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Mike,
While you're here, I've got a few of questions.
Would you recommend bushing the lifter bores on a mild 400 horsepower street 400/451 stroker?
Depends upon what cam gets installed. Most likely not on a mild build but keep in mind a lifter bush job is less expensive than a full rebuild from a wiped cam if going flat tappet.
Quote:
What's the longevity of the bronze bushings? Might they last 100k miles or more in the said street engine if properly maintained?
Ampco bronze needs less lubrication than cast iron to not wear. As long as there is pressurized oil to the lifters, I don't see a longevity issue on a street car.
Quote:
My only real concern with the bushings is if they ever came loose from the block.
Thanks in advance for the insight.
They are pressed in and we use a sleeve locker
Yes, I am going flat tappet. So now you got me pondering your Block-In-A-Bag option since I don't think there are any shops in my area with the same level of Mopar expertise.
Questions:
I'm attached to my block, can you return the one I send you?
Is there any shipping cost included with the Block-In-A-Bag price or is it all extra?
Generally, how does packaging and freight work with an engine block? What's the best way?
Thanks again!
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: CompSyn]
#601790
02/09/10 08:32 PM
02/09/10 08:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
CRE2004
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Mike,
While you're here, I've got a few of questions.
Would you recommend bushing the lifter bores on a mild 400 horsepower street 400/451 stroker?
Depends upon what cam gets installed. Most likely not on a mild build but keep in mind a lifter bush job is less expensive than a full rebuild from a wiped cam if going flat tappet.
Quote:
What's the longevity of the bronze bushings? Might they last 100k miles or more in the said street engine if properly maintained?
Ampco bronze needs less lubrication than cast iron to not wear. As long as there is pressurized oil to the lifters, I don't see a longevity issue on a street car.
Quote:
My only real concern with the bushings is if they ever came loose from the block.
Thanks in advance for the insight.
They are pressed in and we use a sleeve locker
Yes, I am going flat tappet. So now you got me pondering your Block-In-A-Bag option since I don't think there are any shops in my area with the same level of Mopar expertise.
Questions:
I'm attached to my block, can you return the one I send you?
YES
Quote:
Is there any shipping cost included with the Block-In-A-Bag price or is it all extra?
Shipping is not included
Quote:
Generally, how does packaging and freight work with an engine block? What's the best way?
Most guys strap it to a pallet and ship it via some LTL common carrier, R&L, Roadway, Yellowfreight, fedex freight, etc. Some take the time to box it or wrap it, but most just strap it down and send it. When it's returned, it will be packaged well in a HEAVY cardboard container and strapped to a pallet as well.
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Re: Seen many OEM 440 blocks with lifter bore issues?
[Re: CRE2004]
#601791
02/09/10 09:45 PM
02/09/10 09:45 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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Hello Brad I had one block I suspected of bad lifter bore indexing. It was credited to a wipe lobe in "04" I was trying to break in a MP 590 purple shaft. I done everything correctly..Sometimes they still eat lobes. Fast forward to 2008. A friend is now using the block. He purchases a new Comp cam with SQ lobes. I wasnt there for break in, but the guy knows the in's and out's of a new cam break in procedure. Well a few races later, he calls me and says..."hey the valve train noise is crazy lowd on this engine" I say well have you checked lash. He said No He calls me back a few days later and tells me the cam is trashed. I was over the next weekend. Looking at the cam I saw something that surprised me. I turned around and say "hey that wiped lobe was on Number #6 hole exh, and #4 intake?" He says yea how did you know?...LOL That block used a roller cam, and a few other flat tappet cams in between these cams with no trouble. I know one was already broken in..but I suspect a problem with those bore for sure.
Last edited by Bob_Coomer; 02/09/10 09:46 PM.
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