440 Source kit update part 1 - Moparts Forums

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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: Diego_Ted] #569498 01/02/10 11:52 AM 01/02/10 11:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 21,129 Niles , Ohio T therocks oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
therocks oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah. T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 21,129 Niles , Ohio	Bob are some of those problesm typical with after market kits?Ive also heard some of the issues have been addressed.My kid is thinking about doing a 550 kit for his 62 300.My machinist built a few strokers with their kit but I havent talked to him since he started.Im sure with you we will get an unbiased opinion.My machinist is probally one of the best in NE Ohio.There are a few members here that know him.Rocky Chrysler Firepower

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: Diego_Ted] #569499 01/02/10 11:53 AM 01/02/10 11:53 AM
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 6,295 U.S. M moparniac master
moparniac master M Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 6,295 U.S.	Quote: Quote: Remember this is for imformation and I'am sure that this may not be typical of all kits.Some of these issues were not seen on previous kits and "(((this was an early kit.)))"Please do not use this post for a bashing party,just use it to gain knowledge as to what to be watchful for.We can learn together for improving our sport.Respectfully Bob The quoted phrase is my only concern because we do not have a current kit being evaluated and there is no way to know how many of these issues have been resolved in current production. And people only see what they want and may attribute any issues found to current production. Just my Diego why did you get sent a 'early" kit Mopar Performance

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: Diego_Ted] #569500 01/02/10 12:00 PM 01/02/10 12:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 390 pacific northwest W wings471 enthusiast
wings471 enthusiast W Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 390 pacific northwest	Quote: Quote: Remember this is for imformation and I'am sure that this may not be typical of all kits.Some of these issues were not seen on previous kits and "(((this was an early kit.)))"Please do not use this post for a bashing party,just use it to gain knowledge as to what to be watchful for.We can learn together for improving our sport.Respectfully Bob The quoted phrase is my only concern because we do not have a current kit being evaluated and there is no way to know how many of these issues have been resolved in current production. And people only see what they want and may attribute any issues found to current production. Just my Diego Good point. I am looking toward building a low deck stroker this year and am VERY interested in seeing how the new kits stack up versus what is being shown in this thread. http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm136/wings440/P8050125-1.jpg "Uhmmmm......I got nuthin'."

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: moparniac] #569501 01/02/10 12:05 PM 01/02/10 12:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394 Q Quicktree I Win
Quicktree I Win Q Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 32,394	what is the price for the kit? and what is the cost to correct all problems ready to assy?

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: Quicktree] #569502 01/02/10 12:06 PM 01/02/10 12:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 6,295 U.S. M moparniac master
moparniac master M Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 6,295 U.S.	Quote: what is the price for the kit? and what is the cost to correct all problems ready to assy? excellent point! Mopar Performance

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: moparniac] #569503 01/02/10 12:07 PM 01/02/10 12:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 438 Great Lakes Region A abodiesonly1 mopar
abodiesonly1 mopar A Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 438 Great Lakes Region	Im sure he'll get to that once ALL the components are checked out.

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: wings471] #569504 01/02/10 12:11 PM 01/02/10 12:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 8 Panama City Florida S sleepychallenger member
sleepychallenger member S Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 8 Panama City Florida	Great Post! Can you tell us which kit this is. I am planning the 383 - 496 kit..Just waiting on funding. Really excited to see how this turns out!

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: B G Racing] #569505 01/02/10 12:15 PM 01/02/10 12:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 4,299 State of Fascism 5 52savoy master
52savoy master 5 Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 4,299 State of Fascism	Great idea Bob...Thanks! I've used 2 of their cranks without any of those problems but I will definitely be checking from now on those areas you've found when I buy another crank.

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: moparniac] #569506 01/02/10 01:03 PM 01/02/10 01:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 825 LENOX , MI KMPX2 mopar addict
KMPX2 mopar addict Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 825 LENOX , MI	why did you get sent a 'early" kit You must have missed his 1st post on this build. Quote: Starting to build another 440 Source stroker kit.Low deck 512".Customer has had it for quite some time and is worried that it has issues.I'am buying it and may build it and install it in one of our lucky BGR racers cars.I will be happy to share the build and the results with everyone,good or bad.We will pattern the build after the old TV series Dragnet from the fiftys and early 60s.It will be call "Just the Facts" a famous line from Sgt. Joe Friday

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: 52savoy] #569507 01/02/10 01:13 PM 01/02/10 01:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 10,542 BROOK PARK, OH WILD BILL Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
WILD BILL Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 10,542 BROOK PARK, OH	Forgive my igronance but was this kit supposed to be balanced? I may not know alot about engine balancing but it seems to me that the stamped weight and the actual bob weight are pretty far off each other.

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: B G Racing] #569508 01/02/10 02:05 PM 01/02/10 02:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,179 California mickm master
mickm master Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,179 California	Quote: Radius interference,main bearing-2 you will probably have enough material here for a whole book by the time this post is done can you explain what the radius interference is here? i'm not quite sure what you mean, and i can't see anything in the picture. thanks!

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: mickm] #569509 01/02/10 02:38 PM 01/02/10 02:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,441 Mo. S supercomp master
supercomp master S Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,441 Mo.	Quote: Quote: Radius interference,main bearing-2 you will probably have enough material here for a whole book by the time this post is done can you explain what the radius interference is here? i'm not quite sure what you mean, and i can't see anything in the picture. thanks! I think he's saying the radius is big enough it's rubbing the edge of the bearing.

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: mickm] #569510 01/02/10 02:47 PM 01/02/10 02:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 807 Toronto, Canada D dirtybee super stock
dirtybee super stock D Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 807 Toronto, Canada	many aftermarket cranks have radiused fillets which is like a small ramp between the journal and crank throw so bearing companies offer narrow bearings to fit these cranks but nobody makes narrow main bearings for the low deck motors yet. therefore it may be necessary to scrape or shave a small amount of material from the bearing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: mickm] #569511 01/02/10 02:47 PM 01/02/10 02:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 871 WA 98043 thecarfarmer super stock
thecarfarmer super stock Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 871 WA 98043	Edit: Dirtybee typed faster than me... The 'radius interference' is where the edge of the bearing binds on the crank. If you look at an original crankshaft, there are sharp corners at the edges of of the journals. Most aftermarket cranks have a fillet radius at each end of the journal. This one simple detail makes the crank stronger, even with everything else being equal. If the radius at the corner of the journal is too big, it can rub on the end of the bearing. This is something that needs to always be checked on every build with an aftermarket crank - even if you run a narrow bearing (Clevite among others offers narrower bearings to give more clearance for exactly this situation). FWIW, the Source had (has?) issues with the corner radii being so large that even the narrow bearings (like Clevite "HN") won't clear w/o cutting a little on the edge of the bearing. Just like shown in BG's picture. Another issue to look for is taper on the journal, where one side is slightly larger than the other. This has nothing to do w/ the fillets in the corners, but should also be looked for on any aftermarket crank (especially a brand new one - you'd catch a funny looking bearing wear pattern on a rebuild). My 4.25" "B" crank from 440 Source had .0015" taper on all 5 mains; the crank snout was off .001", the rod journals were straight, but the radii were so large I had to make some pretty heavy cuts on Clevite HN (narrow) bearings. My crankshaft was a lightweight piece with the pendulum-cut counterweights (extra material removed from counterweights near centerline of the crank) and scalloped crank flange. Looked fairly well finished for an inexpensive part. -Bill Last edited by thecarfarmer; 01/02/10 02:49 PM. Seduce the attractive, and charm the rest. ****** 489 C.I.D., roller cam, aftermarket heads, tunnel ram, stock '54 Dodge rear axle assembly: which of these doesn't belong?

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: thecarfarmer] #569512 01/02/10 05:49 PM 01/02/10 05:49 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: ......................My 4.25" "B" crank from 440 Source had .0015" taper on all 5 mains; the crank snout was off .001", the rod journals were straight, but the radii were so large I had to make some pretty heavy cuts on Clevite HN (narrow) bearings. My crankshaft was a lightweight piece with the pendulum-cut counterweights (extra material removed from counterweights near centerline of the crank) and scalloped crank flange. Looked fairly well finished for an inexpensive part. -Bill I used one of those cranks too, and the indexing was off .035", so I sent it back (since it couldn't be offset ground and fixed) and got another.......Did you have your indexing checked? BG......Are you going to check the indexing on that crank?

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 #569513 01/02/10 07:03 PM 01/02/10 07:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA B G Racing OP master
B G Racing OP master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA	Quote: Quote: ......................My 4.25" "B" crank from 440 Source had .0015" taper on all 5 mains; the crank snout was off .001", the rod journals were straight, but the radii were so large I had to make some pretty heavy cuts on Clevite HN (narrow) bearings. My crankshaft was a lightweight piece with the pendulum-cut counterweights (extra material removed from counterweights near centerline of the crank) and scalloped crank flange. Looked fairly well finished for an inexpensive part. -Bill I used one of those cranks too, and the indexing was off .035", so I sent it back (since it couldn't be offset ground and fixed) and got another.......Did you have your indexing checked? BG......Are you going to check the indexing on that crank? We will correct what ever necessarry and rebalance the crank,we will keep tab on the cost. [IMG]http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq21/ajcasini/max_zpsdppwd9km.jpg[/IMG]

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: B G Racing] #569514 01/02/10 07:24 PM 01/02/10 07:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 9,096 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 9,096 Ontario, Canada	This prompted me to look at my 440Source crank. Only the front and rear rod journals are drilled right through, the middle two stop about 3/4 of the way in - almost like the drillbit wasn't long enough. The rear seal surface is smooth, not knurled. How critical is that? So how do you check the indexing of a crank?

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: dirtybee] #569515 01/02/10 07:32 PM 01/02/10 07:32 PM
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1,131 Thigh-Gap Junction @ @#$%&*! New user name, Same old jerk!
@#$%&*! New user name, Same old jerk! @ Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1,131 Thigh-Gap Junction	I think it needs to be said that a radiused fillet at the edge of the journals IS A GOOD THING. It's one feature that makes aftermarket cranks BETTER THAN FACTORY CRANKSHAFTS. It would be easier and cheaper to just cut a right angle there and have a weaker journal. Quote: many aftermarket cranks have radiused fillets which is like a small ramp between the journal and crank throw... but nobody makes narrow main bearings for the low deck motors yet. therefore it may be necessary to scrape or shave a small amount of material from the bearing

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: Stanton] #569516 01/02/10 07:42 PM 01/02/10 07:42 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: .......The rear seal surface is smooth, not knurled. How critical is that? So how do you check the indexing of a crank? Smooth surface is better than knurled for regular seals.......some after market cranks put knurls in the crank, but I can't figure out why. .......The knurl is there if you're going to use a rope seal, and who does that??? (that shows a company that copies something and doesn't even know why it's there) My Source crank was knurled there, so I had it ground off while being indexed...... Yes, indexing is important....and can only be checked in a crank grinder.....

Re: 440 Source kit update part 1 [Re: B G Racing] #569517 01/02/10 08:31 PM 01/02/10 08:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,076 Mooresburg, Tn ' '72CudaRacer top fuel
'72CudaRacer top fuel ' Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,076 Mooresburg, Tn	I know that nothing is "perfect", thats why there are tolerances. But as a point of reference, how do "stock" mopar cranks measure out in regards to journal taper, concentricy, and indexing? A lot of folks take factory stuff and reuse it with out checking anything and don't give it a second thought. Just an honest question that maybe some of you machinist that have checked a lot of them can answer. I too am looking very seriously at a 440 source kit. Thanks, Brian

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