|
Re: hydrogen injection
[Re: moparacer]
#557204
12/19/09 04:03 PM
12/19/09 04:03 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,491
the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,491
the boonies
|
some good points here. and some wrong ones
oxygen SUPPORTS combustion. its not flammable. when there is fire, and fuel, nothing will happen without oxygen. when oxygen is present, it will burn. the higher the oxygen content, the FASTER the fuel will be consumed. a match in air burns for several seconds producing a 1" flame. the same match in pure oxygen burns in 1 microsecond producing a 20' flame. it LOOKS like an explosion but its just consuming the match REALLY REALLY FAST.
thats why nitrous works. but it NEEDS more fuel. nitrous allows the engine to use A LOT more fuel FASTER to make more power.
the H bomb was releasing the energy bond of the hydrogen atom and has nothing to do with this stuff.
Separating hydrogen and oxygen from water using electrolosys does work theoretically but, as some have said, it takes MORE energy to separate the miniscule amount of hydrogen ands oxygen than the amount of energy7 you'll make in the engine. IF you have an OUTSIDE power source (not the car battery charged by the alternator run off the motor) you'l see a miniscule power increase. BUT if it is separated by the battery, charged by the alternator, run off the motor, parasitic losses (friction) costs you more power than you are making
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.
|
|
|
Re: hydrogen injection
[Re: aarcuda]
#557206
12/19/09 04:25 PM
12/19/09 04:25 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 20
Los Angeles
meangreen318
member
|
member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 20
Los Angeles
|
Quote:
some good points here. and some wrong ones
oxygen SUPPORTS combustion. its not flammable. when there is fire, and fuel, nothing will happen without oxygen. when oxygen is present, it will burn. the higher the oxygen content, the FASTER the fuel will be consumed. a match in air burns for several seconds producing a 1" flame. the same match in pure oxygen burns in 1 microsecond producing a 20' flame. it LOOKS like an explosion but its just consuming the match REALLY REALLY FAST.
thats why nitrous works. but it NEEDS more fuel. nitrous allows the engine to use A LOT more fuel FASTER to make more power.
the H bomb was releasing the energy bond of the hydrogen atom and has nothing to do with this stuff.
Separating hydrogen and oxygen from water using electrolosys does work theoretically but, as some have said, it takes MORE energy to separate the miniscule amount of hydrogen ands oxygen than the amount of energy7 you'll make in the engine. IF you have an OUTSIDE power source (not the car battery charged by the alternator run off the motor) you'l see a miniscule power increase. BUT if it is separated by the battery, charged by the alternator, run off the motor, parasitic losses (friction) costs you more power than you are making
I agree with everything that you said, but things need not be flammable to explode!
|
|
|
Re: hydrogen injection
[Re: meangreen318]
#557207
12/19/09 04:27 PM
12/19/09 04:27 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,491
the boonies
aarcuda
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,491
the boonies
|
Quote:
Quote:
some good points here. and some wrong ones
oxygen SUPPORTS combustion. its not flammable. when there is fire, and fuel, nothing will happen without oxygen. when oxygen is present, it will burn. the higher the oxygen content, the FASTER the fuel will be consumed. a match in air burns for several seconds producing a 1" flame. the same match in pure oxygen burns in 1 microsecond producing a 20' flame. it LOOKS like an explosion but its just consuming the match REALLY REALLY FAST.
thats why nitrous works. but it NEEDS more fuel. nitrous allows the engine to use A LOT more fuel FASTER to make more power.
the H bomb was releasing the energy bond of the hydrogen atom and has nothing to do with this stuff.
Separating hydrogen and oxygen from water using electrolosys does work theoretically but, as some have said, it takes MORE energy to separate the miniscule amount of hydrogen ands oxygen than the amount of energy7 you'll make in the engine. IF you have an OUTSIDE power source (not the car battery charged by the alternator run off the motor) you'l see a miniscule power increase. BUT if it is separated by the battery, charged by the alternator, run off the motor, parasitic losses (friction) costs you more power than you are making
I agree with everything that you said, but things need not be flammable to explode!
yup, try overfilling an air tank. it will explode for sure with no fire
|
|
|
Re: hydrogen injection
[Re: aarcuda]
#557208
12/19/09 08:32 PM
12/19/09 08:32 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210
New York
polyspheric
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210
New York
|
Minor point: nuclear devices (fission and fusion) work in reverse order.
"Atomic" (fission) bombs do not produce energy, the energy is released from the parent and resultant materials as a by-product of the reaction. U235 is unstable (as are most elements at the far end of the Periodic Table - they're too heavy), and decays by splitting into several lighter substances, but their atomic mass is slightly less than the Uranium - it's been converted into energy at a truly huge ratio.
"E = mc^2" isn't a theory, it's the actual conversion ratio of matter into energy.
The amount of matter that converted to disintegrate Hiroshima was less than the size of a dime.
Hydrogen (fusion) bombs work the other way - 2 Hydrogen (H) atoms are squashed together at high pressure to form a single Helium (He) atom, but again some of the mass disappears and is released as energy.
How much pressure does it take? Right now, it takes a fission bomb - that's why it's radioactive.
Boffin Emeritus
|
|
|
Re: hydrogen injection
[Re: aarcuda]
#557209
12/19/09 08:40 PM
12/19/09 08:40 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210
New York
polyspheric
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210
New York
|
Right, a sudden release of anything under high pressure is a bomb that doesn't involve any chemical change.
Not all heat-producing reactions are combustion, and combustion doesn't require oxygen (chlorine supports combustion well under certain conditions).
Example of a highly dangerous chemical reaction: thermite, where 2 substances (iron oxide and metallic aluminum, both as powder or small granules) are mixed, and (after ignition to start it up) a reaction "swaps" the bonds to form metallic iron and aluminum oxide, and releases energy. It's hot enough that a major use is welding railroad rails together in place by melting the iron (don't stand too close).
Zinc and sulfur do the same thing - common kid's rocket propellant, they don't burn but they sure get hot.
Boffin Emeritus
|
|
|
Re: hydrogen injection
[Re: polyspheric]
#557210
12/19/09 11:11 PM
12/19/09 11:11 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
|
I have witnessed thermite welds on railroad track many times. The rail is already at a very high temperature due to the mold being fed by an oxy/LP flame. You pull the flame away, swing the pot over the mold and light the thermite mixture. Once hot enough to melt the disc in the bottom of the pot the molten mixture fills the mold.
The signal dept which is where I work does a similar much smaller process(cadweld) to weld copper wires onto the track to complete track circuits.
I don't know much about the ingredients, but. back to subject. Drop the smallest drop of water into the mold during preperation and it will blow the molten mixture 20 ft into the air when doing the cadweld. Or if you run out of the tin disk and try to use something else you might have an explosion. Old pennies prior to 1980 work fine as they are copper. Use a new penny and it makes an unstable combo that blows up. New pennies have die cast metal in them.
The brown gas makes a difference. You should not have a vacuum leak as you are attaching to a sealed canister. If you do not introduce electricity there is no reaction between the electrodes and the H2O. Just for all the electrical loss excuses the wire going to the canister pulls less than 30 Amps. At idle this may be a noticeable drain of power from the alternater but at any engine speed this would be unnoticeable. Like someone said the belt turning the alternater uses more engine power than the load the alternater causes when producing current. A perfect example is a drag car running an alternater. You can turn the field off and see some slight performance gain. Most of what you see is consitancy. Take the belt off the alternater and you will more than double the gain in performance.
If you go to the mythbusters site you will see they did not do the browngas test correctly. I have though about doing the deal but just did not see it worth enough for the effort to make the system on a car that uses O2 sensors. you have to fool the O2 sensor to make the system work. Otherwise the fuel injection will run rich due to the incorrect O2 readings and kill any benefit reached running the Brown Gas.
Leon
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
|
|
|
Re: hydrogen injection
[Re: rebel]
#557211
12/19/09 11:51 PM
12/19/09 11:51 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,328
St. Louis, MO
mopardamo
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,328
St. Louis, MO
|
Hello, This is noting new. Not going to take off. Has been around since the 50's maybe earlier. Look at the diesel performance sites. When all is said and done it adds up to nothing. It is impossible to extract enough energy from the water with those tiny kits using the alternator to feed a weed whipper much less a performance motor. Many kit makers have come under legal action due to fraud. This is all old info that leads nowhere. Don't take it from me check further for yourself. Sorry! Damon 
|
|
|
Re: hydrogen injection
[Re: polyspheric]
#557213
12/20/09 10:11 AM
12/20/09 10:11 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 506
Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.
DakFink
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 506
Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.
|
Quote:
the water separated into it's 2 pure elements (Hydrogen and Oxygen) from the extreme heat
That was a steam explosion.
The total energy content of 16 oz. of water is a tiny, tiny fraction of 16 oz. of gasoline.
I am repeating what was told to us by the 2 Chemist in the training video that they made us watch at that plant before we were allowed on the floor.
They showed pictures of the place that had exploded, over 10,000sq/ft and about $5 million in damages not including the 40+ people that got killed.
16oz of steam shouldn't pack that big of a bang either!!
Like someone else mentioned. You split H (which is flammable and add O to it. YOU got one nasty combo.
Pure oxygen doesn't burn, but when added to a something that can and is. It makes it burn a heck of alot faster.
Yes mixing Oxygen and oil and adding a spark will cause an explosion. Navy training video proved it when they set up a situation with a oil soaked glove and Lox. It destroyed the trailer that they use to ignite the glove with. Not jsut burnt but flipped it and ripped it apart.
|
|
|
Re: hydrogen injection
[Re: DakFink]
#557214
12/20/09 11:25 AM
12/20/09 11:25 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210
New York
polyspheric
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210
New York
|
You can't "split H" - it's a single atom, and that would be a nuclear reaction, not a chemical reaction.
Burning all the hydrogen in 16 oz. of water produces very little; in absolute terms, again, far less than the same amount of gasoline.
Repeating it doesn't make it true.
Please give date, place and name of "40 people killed"? Or is it in Guiness?
Boffin Emeritus
|
|
|
Re: hydrogen injection
[Re: mopowered]
#557220
12/23/09 09:29 AM
12/23/09 09:29 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
Quote:
I'm no expert on the subject by any means but I understand that it's not about comparing gasoline to hydrogen (why wasn't Hiroshima a gasoline bomb?) but instead more about what the addition of Hydrogen into the combustion chamber environment does for combustion efficiency. It doesn't take much for big things to happen...
1) hiroshima and nagasaki were both nuclear fission bombs utilizing uranium isotopes
2) an "H-bomb" is nuclear fusion, combining 2 Hydrogen elements into a helium element, basically the same process that the sun creates energy. it is not combusting hydrogen with oxygen (an example of that would be the hindenburg)
3) I have my doubts its really doing what he's claiming, if anything it may be injecting water vapor....which I've thought would be a neat way to make a MPG motor--very high compression (say, 11-12:1), high flowing, smallish port heads (say, ported magnums on a small block), short duration, high lift roller cam (something in the 208@.050 and ~.530 lift, with a 112 LSA for minimal overlap), and lean cruise mixture, and using water injection to control detonation.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: hydrogen injection
[Re: meangreen318]
#557221
12/23/09 11:45 AM
12/23/09 11:45 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 506
Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.
DakFink
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 506
Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.
|
I'm definitely NO Chemist. Hated the subject. But read the last 2 paragraphs on pages 3 of this MSDS sheet. http://www.msds.alcan.com/MSDS/fiches.ns...03020080714.pdfHmmmm? Molten Aluminum explodes on contact with water, and Aluminum shavings react with water creating Flammable Hydrogen Gas. I know I have also seen a 50lb slab of zinc get thrown back out of a furnace like you would toss a coin across the floor because of the moisture that was on it. Guy even said he knew better than throwing the slab in the furnace wet and cold.
|
|
|
Re: hydrogen injection
[Re: DakFink]
#557222
12/23/09 12:04 PM
12/23/09 12:04 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 20
Los Angeles
meangreen318
member
|
member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 20
Los Angeles
|
Quote:
I'm definitely NO Chemist. Hated the subject. But read the last 2 paragraphs on pages 3 of this MSDS sheet.
http://www.msds.alcan.com/MSDS/fiches.ns...03020080714.pdf
Hmmmm? Molten Aluminum explodes on contact with water, and Aluminum shavings react with water creating Flammable Hydrogen Gas.
I know I have also seen a 50lb slab of zinc get thrown back out of a furnace like you would toss a coin across the floor because of the moisture that was on it. Guy even said he knew better than throwing the slab in the furnace wet and cold.
This is redox chemistry ... in both the molten form and the powder form ... a reaction to produce aluminum oxide and hydrogen gas. This is not the splitting of water to hydrogen and oxygen due to heat. Unoxidized aluminum is very,very oxophilic. In fact, most metals in there unoxidized forms are very reactive with oxygen or water ... they want nothing more than to become oxide...
MSDSs are funny. Take a look at the MSDS for sand 
|
|
|
Re: hydrogen injection
[Re: meangreen318]
#557223
12/23/09 12:34 PM
12/23/09 12:34 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,722
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
|
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,722
Bitopia
|
And I might add that many current military weapons/bombs are comprised of 20-24% powdered alum as an explosive component. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_H6And Alum Perchlorate? is the main propellant component for the space shuttle solid rocket boosters.
|
|
|
|
|
