Re: Av-gas question
[Re: 440Jim]
#534451
11/24/09 01:08 PM
11/24/09 01:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695 nc
emarine01
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
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Wow, where to start One persons 12 to 1 compression ratio can be a lot different than others, Cranking cylinder pressure is a better tool for octane number, we make 225psi with this engine @ 12 < not pump gas friendly> we made 185 with the same engine and different cam timing< pump gas friendly> The specific gravity of ave gas will be lower due to less water content in PPM for high altitude use, less tendency to freeze, I have never heard of ave gas made for lower RPM use and it is rated on the same scales as all gas fuels you can find both rating #s for the same fuel, all engines will preform differently at different rpms due to volumetric efficiency @ any given point in the rpm band, dynamic compression vs static, fuels are always an interesting topic , some times a lower octane fuel will prove to make more power in a situation where the burn rate is closer to the pressure needs of the cylinder than a higher octane fuel with a slower burn, All fuels of the same octane # dont burn @ the same rate< just to confuse things even more> I think most racers error on the side of higher octane to ward off detonation, and its probably a good thing, I would love to see more dyno posts comparing fuels in a controlled experiment so we can learn something new and end some of the fuel myths posts, I have read a lot of them and still have no clue if I have the right fuel for my set up
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Re: Av-gas question
[Re: emarine01]
#534452
11/24/09 01:17 PM
11/24/09 01:17 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 803 Fl. USA
PS Arrow
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 803
Fl. USA
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Quote:
Wow, where to start One persons 12 to 1 compression ratio can be a lot different than others, Cranking cylinder pressure is a better tool for octane number, we make 225psi with this engine @ 12 < not pump gas friendly> we made 185 with the same engine and different cam timing< pump gas friendly> The specific gravity of ave gas will be lower due to less water content in PPM for high altitude use, less tendency to freeze, I have never heard of ave gas made for lower RPM use and it is rated on the same scales as all gas fuels you can find both rating #s for the same fuel, all engines will preform differently at different rpms due to volumetric efficiency @ any given point in the rpm band, dynamic compression vs static, fuels are always an interesting topic , some times a lower octane fuel will prove to make more power in a situation where the burn rate is closer to the pressure needs of the cylinder than a higher octane fuel with a slower burn, All fuels of the same octane # dont burn @ the same rate< just to confuse things even more> I think most racers error on the side of higher octane to ward off detonation, and its probably a good thing, I would love to see more dyno posts comparing fuels in a controlled experiment so we can learn something new and end some of the fuel myths posts, I have read a lot of them and still have no clue if I have the right fuel for my set up
Great post, awesome input!!!
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Re: Av-gas question
[Re: emarine01]
#534453
11/24/09 01:19 PM
11/24/09 01:19 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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there's more energy potential in lower octane fuels eg: two identical engines one runs 94 the other 87 octane. the 87 octane will make more power. any given engine requires x-amount of octane. anything beyond that x-amount is wasted energy.
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Re: Av-gas question
#534454
11/24/09 11:29 PM
11/24/09 11:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 456 corpus christi tex
Cheatham
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 456
corpus christi tex
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Ive replied to this topic before and im not gonna get into great detail as i did before, as ive once stated i did fuel QC for an FBO a couple of years ago, all i will say is 100LL is a good fuel, it is regulated on how its made and is documented for liabitity reasons in case of a airplane crash, auto gas doesnt have any regulations on how it made, you could be getting 93octane but really getting 87.100LL has almost no water so it dont freeze and clog a fuel line at altitude in flight, its specific gravity is lighter than auto gas, it is rather easy to get and find and is much cheaper than race fuel, it doesnt have all the extra crap that auto gas has in it, try pouring av gas and auto gas into a styro foam cup and see which one dissolves, and its usually fresher than race fuel and auto gas, how long do you think race fuel been sitting in a barrel before you get it, i use to get all i wanted of 100ll but since i dont work there anymore ive switch to E 85 and liking it. Dont ever let the highway patrol know you transporting or using av gas, its a tax thing law and it has lead in it. I havent seen a post about Toulene yet??
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Re: Av-gas question
[Re: Cheatham]
#534455
11/25/09 01:55 AM
11/25/09 01:55 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 202 CA
62SAVOY
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 202
CA
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Quote:
Dont ever let the highway patrol know you transporting or using av gas, its a tax thing law and it has lead in it.
Probably same result as the diesel guys are having running number 2 diesel in their trucks. Last heard was $10,000.00 fine and than $1,000.00 per each gallon on the vehicle if they dipped the tank and had red dye in it. Was getting expensive for some. Plus not paying tax either gunna get the higher up people into it also. OOOOHHHHHHHHH it gunna get ugly. Some guys just said forget it and continued paying the high prices that were being paid at the pump. They didn't want the hassle. The little you save not gunna be worth it when greased up for what's coming if caught. Guys were even online saying they were doing it and telling everyone. Some guys spoke up and said "why you bragging it?" Now they know who to go too.
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Re: Av-gas question
[Re: 62SAVOY]
#534457
11/25/09 02:08 AM
11/25/09 02:08 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025 Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
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Found this.. "Motor Trend: 100 octane aviation "AV" gas is usually cheaper that 100 octane race gas. What is the difference between race gas and AV gas? Rockett Brand: Aviation gasoline with an octane quality of 100 is often cheaper than 100 unleaded, thus it may look attractive to performance enthusiasts. First and foremost, 100 octane Aviation fuel contains tetraethyl lead (TEL); since 1996 it has been illegal to use leaded gasoline in a licensed street vehicle and you can be fined us to $25,000 for using it. Plus, leaded gasoline will damage the oxygen sensor(s) and catalytic converter(s) found in modern vehicles. Aviation fuel is designed for low speed aircraft engines that run at 2700 to 2800 RPM at 10,000 feet altitude. Aviation fuel often contains hydrocarbons that are detrimental to the performance of a high-horsepower street car. There are two grades of 100 octane aviation gasoline. One is identified as 100LL and is blue in color. The other is 100/130 and is green in color. The second number (130) shown for the green fuel is a measurement using a supercharged octane test engine. Although this 130 octane number is higher, it is achieved from an entirely different test and rating system than octane numbers determined with normally aspirated engines. For comparison, Rockett Brand 111 octane tests out at over 160 octane using the supercharged aviation method that indicates Rockett Brand 111 has a significant advantage in anti-knock ability over 100/130 aviation gasoline. Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/tuners/112_0606_sf_high_octane_fuel/index.html#ixzz0XqiDIDGm"
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Re: Av-gas question
[Re: emarine01]
#534458
11/25/09 09:05 AM
11/25/09 09:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925 NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
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Quote:
I have never heard of ave gas made for lower RPM use and it is rated on the same scales as all gas fuels you can find both rating #s for the same fuel
From gasoline FAQ: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/ Quote:
6.19 Are aviation gasoline octane numbers comparable?
Aviation gasolines were all highly leaded and graded using two numbers, with common grades being 80/87, 100/130, and 115/145 [109,110]. The first number is the Aviation rating ( aka Lean Mixture rating ), and the second number is the Supercharge rating ( aka Rich Mixture rating ). In the 1970s a new grade, 100LL ( low lead = 0.53mlTEL/L instead of 1.06mlTEL/L) was introduced to replace the 80/87 and 100/130. Soon after the introduction, there was a spate of plug fouling, and high cylinder head temperatures resulting in cracked cylinder heads [110]. The old 80/87 grade was reintroduced on a limited scale. The Aviation Rating is determined using the automotive Motor Octane test procedure, and then converted to an Aviation Number using a table in the method. Aviation Numbers below 100 are Octane numbers, while numbers above 100 are Performance numbers. There is usually only 1 - 2 Octane units different to the Motor value up to 100, but Performance numbers varies significantly above that eg 110 MON = 128 Performance number.
The second Avgas number is the Rich Mixture method Performance Number ( PN - they are not commonly called octane numbers when they are above 100 ), and is determined on a supercharged version of the CFR engine which has a fixed compression ratio.
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Re: Av-gas question
[Re: Cheatham]
#534460
11/25/09 09:49 AM
11/25/09 09:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695 nc
emarine01
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
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Many factory air craft engines have 7k + red lines, from the shell oil definitions 110LL is 100 octane @ an A/F ratio of 14.7 and 130 octane @ a A/F of 12.5, I think that 2700 RPM is the ave cruise used for the 150 hr design test from the FAA, some good info on oils on the air craft sites also Ooops typo its 100ll not 110, I cant type in the dark
Last edited by emarine01; 11/25/09 10:51 AM.
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Re: Av-gas question
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#534461
11/25/09 10:09 AM
11/25/09 10:09 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165 Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
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Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
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Quote:
100LL here in the states has a very low specific gravity, usually around .690. It also has additives to increase the shelf life to 18 months It was not design or intended to be ran much above 2700 RPM(burn time?) also so that seems to be a problem. I use to use the 115/1345 and when that went away we used the 115/130 octane. I found that all of my stock Mopar M.W. intake and exhaust valves where pitted after using that fuel for two years of drag racing only at or close to twice a month Needless to say I don't use it anymore in a high compression motor, I have mixed it with pump gas on occasion to improve the shelf life for sitting over the winter in cars that I don't drive in the winter I would not add any oil to any gas unless it was for a two stroke motor Alcholol race fuel is a different story
I agree completely with Cab. Although some people seem to like AVgas in their cars that's not what it was formulated for.
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Re: Av-gas question
[Re: BobR]
#534463
11/25/09 01:45 PM
11/25/09 01:45 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 183 Canada
Mofopar
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 183
Canada
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Quote:
Although some people seem to like AVgas in their cars that's not what it was formulated for.
Don't aircraft engines have valves similar in design and function to that of stock automotive or even high performance valves? Do they see problems with pitting and so on?
Lets face it, av was formulated for a combustion engine,that happens to be in an aircraft, subject to varying atmospheric conditions and varying rpm ranges. It should be more expensive than race gas, as someone else pointed out.
What would be the specific property of av that makes it great for combustion at say 2700 but less so at 6000? (not asking you per se even though I replied to your post)
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