Re: Trying for gas mileage but still want a V8
[Re: landon1]
#493170
10/10/09 10:20 PM
10/10/09 10:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,494 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,494
Kalispell Mt.
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1st off the 360 is probably not right getting that bad of miledge but I still think there is gains to be had by building a 273 to get better MPG, cost effective though I can't say for sure. I do know the 273 can make as much power as a stock 318, as a matter of fact the 273 4bbl made more power than 99% of 318s only the rare 4bbl 318 made more and it was not by much. The 273 2bbl made more TQ than a 225 2bbl or 1bbl. 2nd the 273 heads might not be as bad as you think, depending on what year they are... They all had closed chamber heads until 68 and those closed chamber heads flow more than the 302 head and have smaller combustion chambers. He is putting it in a truck so high compression is not really a good thing, all he needs to do is zero deck the stock pistons in the block if the bores are still good and use the felpro .039 head gaskets to get some quench, all stuff he would still need to do to a 318 or 360 so it is still the same dollars. I think the real deal maker for a small motor in a big vehicle is cam selection. He will need a wide lobe seperation and even retard the cam a couple degrees so there is very little overlap and so every last drop of air and fuel has time to burn in the chamber instead of the exhaust. I would order a custom cam with about 180 degrees duration @ .050 and get the fastest lifting lobe you can get at that duration. Add 1.6 rockers to get as much lift as possible, you don't want the piston to work hard to suck the air and fuel into the chamber, this will reduce pumping losses and help make it up to the 230 hp that the 318 made and then some (I think 250 is not out of the realm of possibility). Also since the 273 is going to make less power at the same throttle angle you will have to push the throttle harder to run the same speed, this means even less pumping losses because manifold vaccume will be lower. For a carb you should run an 800 thermoquad on a performer intake if it is 67 heads (920 castings) or 302 heads you have, if your heads are 66 or older they have a slightly different intake bolt angle so get a factory iron 4bbl intake with an adapter, you should have plenty room under the hood. You should be running headers for it to make the motor do less work pushing the gasses out, also if you run some very long small tube headers you can boost low RPM tq with reasonance tuneing. I think you will get a few more MPG than you are now and it should easily make as much or even more power than a stock 318. It is not going to be a great performance truck but it will be fun doing it. I kinda wish I had the money to put a scienced out 273 in my car to see how much more (or less)mpg it would make than the old 318 did. Or even do another 318 but with a custom cam and EFI but I really think the 273 could do better than most of the skeptics on here think.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Trying for gas mileage but still want a V8
[Re: HotRodDave]
#493171
10/10/09 11:17 PM
10/10/09 11:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168 Vancouver, WA
MoparMarq
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168
Vancouver, WA
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Don't know that much about 273s (or 360s, for that matter), but I'll reiterate that technology is very good way to improve MPG. My '01 Durango R/T (5.9 - 360, basically) gets 19 MPG on the highway at 60 MPH. Granted, it has a K&N FIPK kit, Fastman TB, headers, and 3" exhaust all the way back (2.5" into a Y-pipe), but it's doable. The rest is factory through the 46RE and 3.92 gears. Full tank of gas and driver comes in at 5240 pounds.
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Re: Trying for gas mileage but still want a V8
[Re: HotRodDave]
#493175
10/11/09 06:52 AM
10/11/09 06:52 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,554 Here
jcc
No soup for you!!!
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No soup for you!!!
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,554
Here
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Quote:
He is putting it in a truck so high compression is not really a good thing,
A very thorough and valid response IMO, except for the above comment. When attempting max mpg, the highest compression possible for the combination is the goal. I agree on the headers and cams, plus with a mild hyd roller, piston coatings, windage tray, light oils, stock oil pump, dual 2.5" exhaust, multi spark ignition, 190F? thermostat, and mainly a very healthy vacum advance. The most significant mpg predictor is the drivers right foot, and the extra 45 cubes combined with bang for buck IMO might make a 318 a better solution. I have a mild street built 273 installed by previous owner in 62 b body, but my right foot negates any mpg +'s.
I'm with Helmuth Hübener, and no soup is being served today.
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Re: Trying for gas mileage but still want a V8
[Re: jcc]
#493176
10/11/09 10:45 AM
10/11/09 10:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,791 Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Magnum
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,791
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
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Powerwagondude. You're getting some good replies here and I will totally agree with many of them. Vacuum advance, overdrive and no 273. Mileage can be obtained with cubic inches. I just went from a 3.5L LHS to a 3.8L Park Ave. Same everything but better mileage. My truck's original 318, 2 barrel could easily get 18-21 with 25mpg straight highway recorded but it was probably an 18 second truck that could barely tow anything. It also depends on how much power you are willing to sacrifice. Now I went with a bigger engine, mileage is down slightly 16-19 average with a peak of straight highway at 23mpg but it's much faster, 14.8 @ 91.5 and it has enough power to make me question my tie down straps. It's a 5.9 Magnum, carbed, stock cam and a 5 speed manual. On the higway in 5th gear. Just enough power to still be a fun truck.
69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
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Re: Trying for gas mileage but still want a V8
[Re: PowerWagonDude]
#493178
10/11/09 12:26 PM
10/11/09 12:26 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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If you think the 4.6 wil get good mileage in a truck you will be sadly mistaken. We have several, about 10, F150's. Some with the 4.6, they get maybe 13 mpg and are fairly gutless. My work truck has the 5.4 and it get's 18 or so, plus or minus .5 mpg depending on if I have a tail or head wind.
Good luck on your project but I suspect you willbe disappointed in the results. Your truck has the aerodynamics of a brick wall and the 273 will have to work harder to overcome that. Simple fact there. It takes so much power to overcome it. The 360 will make that power at a lower rpm than the 273, take so much gas to make a level of HP that regardless you will still be burning that gas, or more, to push your truck around.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Trying for gas mileage but still want a V8
[Re: Supercuda]
#493179
10/11/09 02:00 PM
10/11/09 02:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,494 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,494
Kalispell Mt.
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Don't listen to the naysayers, true it will not be a hot rod but you never said you wanted one. I will also tell you I hate fords but the 4.6 aint that bad, not great but not bad and you gotta consider he said he mabey averages 40mph so aero dynamics is not going to play a big part.
I think 20mpg is easily possible if you are not running pedal to the metal all the time.
2 benifits you will have over the bigger motor is pumping losses will be significantly lower and friction will be a lot lower.
As for the compression comment I should have presented it with more other input. Yes you want as much compression as it will handle without detonateing itself to death but in a heavy truck with super short duration cam and small cubes you will find that limit at a lower compression than a bigger motor with a bigger cam. I would shoot for something like 9.5 max and be prepared you might need premium fuel.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Trying for gas mileage but still want a V8
[Re: PowerWagonDude]
#493180
10/12/09 07:47 AM
10/12/09 07:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162 USA
360view
Moparts resident spammer
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Moparts resident spammer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
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Go back to basics. If 3 otherwise identical PowerWagons are driving on a highway at 40 mph, all of the same weights, tires and gearing, but one has a 273, one a 318 and one a 340 V8 why does the 273 get better MPG at this steady speed situation? The answer (mostly) has to do with MAP (manifold absolute pressure) Is a picture worth a thousand words?
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Re: Trying for gas mileage but still want a V8
[Re: jcc]
#493182
10/12/09 06:57 PM
10/12/09 06:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,494 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,494
Kalispell Mt.
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The 675 and 308 are going to work against you for MPG and HP You should either use the 302 heads or your original heads, I think they are a 315 casting looking at the pics.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Trying for gas mileage but still want a V8
[Re: HotRodDave]
#493183
10/12/09 08:33 PM
10/12/09 08:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323 NY NY
340duster340
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,323
NY NY
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can you offset grind the 273 crank to get the stroke you want? might beable to use a set of chevy rods to save $$
all 273's had forged cranks, i think all 360's had cast.
you cant go nuts with the heads because bore strouding in the bore will be an issue.
does anyone know how much over bore the 273 can take?
1966 Dart GT
...down to only 1 mopar for the first time in 15 years!
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Re: Trying for gas mileage but still want a V8
[Re: 340duster340]
#493184
10/12/09 08:56 PM
10/12/09 08:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123 Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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cost vs. benefit for building a mileage motor, I still think you're better off using a 318 with KB167's vs a 273....
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD 1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!*** 2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T 2017 Grand Cherokee Overland 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Trying for gas mileage but still want a V8
[Re: patrick]
#493187
10/14/09 09:50 AM
10/14/09 09:50 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,682 Clinton Twp. Michigan
coronet1966d
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,682
Clinton Twp. Michigan
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Quote:
cost vs. benefit for building a mileage motor, I still think you're better off using a 318 with KB167's vs a 273....
go with a 318
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