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Re: Went to adjust lash & Crane Gold rockers !#&$^.%(*!!!!
[Re: Blakcharger440]
#485949
10/03/09 11:30 AM
10/03/09 11:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 163
CT: Corrupticut
Mr71Bee
member
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member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 163
CT: Corrupticut
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Blakchager, before tearing down the engine you should be looking for easy to fix oil starvation issues such as the lines leading into the heads, rocker shaft oil location facing the exhaust etc. What I found on mine may not be what is effecting your engine.
As for other parts failing due to oil issues on the top of the motor: the cam and lifters are not effected as much of their lube is spashed from below of from the lifter area. The upper end of the push rod would fail with no oil if you run it long enough. Better check and see.
On our big blocks that oil through the heads, the supply to the top end is not continuous. It is directed to the rocker shaft through the #4 cam bearing and cam journal. When the hole in the bearings and cam journal align, it sends a "pulse" of oil to the top end.
The amount of oil depends on a number of factors such as pressure, viscosity, RPMs (effects the length of time of the pulse), restrictions in the system, etc. In my case, I believe that the misaligments were effecting the restriction thus starving the rockers.
At zero RPMs (oil priming) there was plenty of oil because the hole is exposed to full pressure full time. Restrictions count for less.
I could see it looking into the valve covers. There was very little oil coming out the rockers when the motor was running,but there was plenty of oil to the top end with the motor not running.
My cam bearing was slotted at the bottom, but were round on the outlets to the heads. It was not aligned well. I had full openeing at the bottm slot but the way the bearing was in there, the outlets were about 30 % blocked. (I used a mirror to check that out)
I also measured the placement of the cam journal holes, and they seemed to be a bit off when I compared it to the previous cam that was in the car. My measures were not that precise, and it does not seem likely that a new cam would have that as an issue?
I increased the pulse width by opening up the hole through the journal using a dremel tool. I champhered and blended all 3 holes it to a depth of about 1/8 + inch and to about twice as wide as stock. This made the entrance oval shaped. I did not change the width in both directions, only along the axis of rotation. The original oil hole remained in the center of the oval.
Things are working well now. I see plenty of oil up on top. Does this over oil the top end? Maybe. Does it matter much for a street/strip machine? Not too much. Was it an easy fix? Compared to getting that cam bearing realigned, yes.
The fact that this is a new engine and that it oil primed well would make me suspect your alignment of the bearings or cam journal hole placement. You have to pull the cam to see it. While it is out, you should look to see if there is damage on the lobes and lifters due to the aluminum in the oil.
good luck.....
Dallas
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Re: Went to adjust lash & Crane Gold rockers !#&$^.%(*!!!!
[Re: JohnRR]
#485952
10/04/09 10:04 AM
10/04/09 10:04 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
602heavy
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
UK
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Quote:
Quote:
Spin the motor till #8 ex valve is fully open , remove bolt from rocker shaft pedestal (pas side) & prime oil pump with a drill , you will know for sure if #4 cam bearing is'nt aligned.
Same goes for drivers side , spin motor till #7 ex valve is fully open (or there abouts) & prime with drill.
I'd only loosen that bolt so there is a gap between the bolt and the holddown and not remove it , when you spin the pump a stream of oil will be hitting the hood and covering the engine compartment. 
If the garage roof is high enough you can catch it on the way down. 
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Re: Went to adjust lash & Crane Gold rockers !#&$^.%(*!!!!
[Re: 602heavy]
#485954
10/04/09 06:43 PM
10/04/09 06:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
Blakcharger440
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
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Quote:
Spin the motor till #8 ex valve is fully open , remove bolt from rocker shaft pedestal (pas side) & prime oil pump with a drill , you will know for sure if #4 cam bearing is'nt aligned.
Same goes for drivers side , spin motor till #7 ex valve is fully open (or there abouts) & prime with drill.
Here is a dumb question. Why cant I just spin the motor using a remote starter with the bolt from the rocker shaft removed to see if #7 or #8 is getting oil?
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Re: Went to adjust lash & Crane Gold rockers !#&$^.%(*!!!!
[Re: Mr71Bee]
#485956
10/04/09 08:40 PM
10/04/09 08:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
Blakcharger440
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
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Quote:
Your wear patterns looked like my wear patterns... Bad news for your engine. It looks like you have insufficient oil to your shafts and your rockers and shafts are scrap. You can probably feel little grooves in them when you thrust that rocker on the shaft.
Before putting her back together, take a look at the oil passage coming up from the block and be sure it looks open. Maybe you have some flash in it that is causing a restriction.
Want to check for flow? Assemble the rockers, but leave all the bolts in. Remove spark plugs. Prime the oil system and fill the rocker shafts. Install the distributor. Spin the motor and get oil pressure. Look for oil squirtin out the tips and sides of the rockers on cyl 1 or 2. The amount should be quite a bit. If its only a dribble, then you might not have enough oil volume.
Was this motor recently rebuilt?
This is a dumb question but why do i need to pull the distributor for? Shouldnt I just need to remove the spark plugs and then crank the engine over with a remote start and look for oil at the rockers?
I am no pro engine builder but just wanting to learn more. 
I doubt that I even have 100 miles on this engine.
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Re: Went to adjust lash & Crane Gold rockers !#&$^.%(*!!!!
[Re: 9 Sec Phill]
#485959
10/05/09 09:44 AM
10/05/09 09:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
Blakcharger440
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
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Quote:
Just a couple of questions,
#1 does the motor have head studs? If so im sure the the stud itself is to big(1/2") and cutting off oil flow to the rockers..DAMHIK..the stock bolt is under cut to give room for the oil to pass and get oil to the rockers. Running the stud cut oil flow almost 80% over the stock bolt.
#2 Did you have the shafts on the right way, there is a front and a rear for the oil holes to line up...
#3 Are the effected rockers from the front or rear of the motor?
#4 Nice looking place you got there
1) No head studs
2) I didnt know there was a front and rear....I just thought that the rocker shaft oil holes should be facing down toward the head?
3) All the rockers on the driver side head had some damage ( I havent pulled the passenger side yet).
4)Thanks been in the new house for just over a year.
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Re: Went to adjust lash & Crane Gold rockers !#&$^.%(*!!!!
[Re: Blakcharger440]
#485962
10/05/09 10:09 AM
10/05/09 10:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,082
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,082
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Just a couple of questions,
#1 does the motor have head studs? If so im sure the the stud itself is to big(1/2") and cutting off oil flow to the rockers..DAMHIK..the stock bolt is under cut to give room for the oil to pass and get oil to the rockers. Running the stud cut oil flow almost 80% over the stock bolt.
#2 Did you have the shafts on the right way, there is a front and a rear for the oil holes to line up...
#3 Are the effected rockers from the front or rear of the motor?
#4 Nice looking place you got there
1) No head studs
2) I didnt know there was a front and rear....I just thought that the rocker shaft oil holes should be facing down toward the head?
3) All the rockers on the driver side head had some damage ( I havent pulled the passenger side yet).
4)Thanks been in the new house for just over a year.
I think he was talking about rocker studs since the oil passage does not intersect a head bolt hole . you have bolts from the pic above , no issue there .
You have alot of open spring pressure for an unbushed rocker , but you need to confirm oil flow . I wouldn't do it bumping over the engine though , pull the dist. and run the pump by hand , be prepared for a mess .
Me , I would take an old junk steel cover , cut off the top , put the rocker shaft and rockers back on and see how much oil oozes out of the assembly once you get the cam in the right spot for the hit or miss oiling , using this method you could do it with the starter , deactivate the coil .
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Re: Went to adjust lash & Crane Gold rockers !#&$ ( PICS)
[Re: Blakcharger440]
#485963
10/05/09 11:24 AM
10/05/09 11:24 AM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318
State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318
State of confusion
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I`m no expert but two things come to mind here.....1, those springs bet, the rockers bleed off too much oil and 2,HOPEFULLY your adjuster`s not showing that many threads below the rocker in that last photo.
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Went to adjust lash & Crane Gold rockers !#&$^.%(*!!!!
[Re: JohnRR]
#485964
10/05/09 11:48 AM
10/05/09 11:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
Blakcharger440
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just a couple of questions,
#1 does the motor have head studs? If so im sure the the stud itself is to big(1/2") and cutting off oil flow to the rockers..DAMHIK..the stock bolt is under cut to give room for the oil to pass and get oil to the rockers. Running the stud cut oil flow almost 80% over the stock bolt.
#2 Did you have the shafts on the right way, there is a front and a rear for the oil holes to line up...
#3 Are the effected rockers from the front or rear of the motor?
#4 Nice looking place you got there
1) No head studs
2) I didnt know there was a front and rear....I just thought that the rocker shaft oil holes should be facing down toward the head?
3) All the rockers on the driver side head had some damage ( I havent pulled the passenger side yet).
4)Thanks been in the new house for just over a year.
I think he was talking about rocker studs since the oil passage does not intersect a head bolt hole . you have bolts from the pic above , no issue there .
You have alot of open spring pressure for an unbushed rocker , but you need to confirm oil flow . I wouldn't do it bumping over the engine though , pull the dist. and run the pump by hand , be prepared for a mess .
Me , I would take an old junk steel cover , cut off the top , put the rocker shaft and rockers back on and see how much oil oozes out of the assembly once you get the cam in the right spot for the hit or miss oiling , using this method you could do it with the starter , deactivate the coil .
Hey John, Maybe you can school me on something here.
I keep hearing about the hit an miss oiling to the rockers? THe rocker shaft and rockers are fed oil from the oil galley which runs up from the lifter valley correct? Well those galleys in the lifter area lead directly back to the oil pump...Now how is that hit and miss when the pump is running and forcing oil through the lifter galleys up to the heads,rockers and lifters?
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Re: Went to adjust lash & Crane Gold rockers !#&$^.%(*!!!!
[Re: Blakcharger440]
#485965
10/05/09 11:54 AM
10/05/09 11:54 AM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
Hemiroid
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just a couple of questions,
#1 does the motor have head studs? If so im sure the the stud itself is to big(1/2") and cutting off oil flow to the rockers..DAMHIK..the stock bolt is under cut to give room for the oil to pass and get oil to the rockers. Running the stud cut oil flow almost 80% over the stock bolt.
#2 Did you have the shafts on the right way, there is a front and a rear for the oil holes to line up...
#3 Are the effected rockers from the front or rear of the motor?
#4 Nice looking place you got there
1) No head studs
2) I didnt know there was a front and rear....I just thought that the rocker shaft oil holes should be facing down toward the head?
3) All the rockers on the driver side head had some damage ( I havent pulled the passenger side yet).
4)Thanks been in the new house for just over a year.
I think he was talking about rocker studs since the oil passage does not intersect a head bolt hole . you have bolts from the pic above , no issue there .
You have alot of open spring pressure for an unbushed rocker , but you need to confirm oil flow . I wouldn't do it bumping over the engine though , pull the dist. and run the pump by hand , be prepared for a mess .
Me , I would take an old junk steel cover , cut off the top , put the rocker shaft and rockers back on and see how much oil oozes out of the assembly once you get the cam in the right spot for the hit or miss oiling , using this method you could do it with the starter , deactivate the coil .
Hey John, Maybe you can school me on something here.
I keep hearing about the hit an miss oiling to the rockers? THe rocker shaft and rockers are fed oil from the oil galley which runs up from the lifter valley correct? Well those galleys in the lifter area lead directly back to the oil pump...Now how is that hit and miss when the pump is running and forcing oil through the lifter galleys up to the heads,rockers and lifters?
The oil for the rockers is coming from the #4 cam bearing. If the bearing hole isn't lined up with the galley or the feeds from the cam to the heads have a restriction of some kind then your oiling could be compromised.
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Re: Went to adjust lash & Crane Gold rockers !#&$^.%(*!!!!
[Re: Hemiroid]
#485966
10/05/09 12:03 PM
10/05/09 12:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
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You're better off with different rockers anyway. The crane golds should be renamed crane coppers or something of much less value... Yes, I do make myself laugh at times...
I much prefer the T&D rockers, but the Harlands are ok. And before anyone says, "But the T&D's are sooo expensive!!", that's partially true, but if he had bought them, he'd be driving his car instead of wondering what went wrong with the rocker arms. It's worth a lot to me to be able to set it and forget it.
I also agree with the statement that I hope you weren't running those rockers with the adjuster showing that many threads. About 2 is all you want or it changes all the geometry and can also load that adjuster badly and possibly break it off.
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Re: Went to adjust lash & Crane Gold rockers !#&$^.%(*!!!!
[Re: Hemiroid]
#485967
10/05/09 12:47 PM
10/05/09 12:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
Blakcharger440
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,402
Wichita,KS
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just a couple of questions,
#1 does the motor have head studs? If so im sure the the stud itself is to big(1/2") and cutting off oil flow to the rockers..DAMHIK..the stock bolt is under cut to give room for the oil to pass and get oil to the rockers. Running the stud cut oil flow almost 80% over the stock bolt.
#2 Did you have the shafts on the right way, there is a front and a rear for the oil holes to line up...
#3 Are the effected rockers from the front or rear of the motor?
#4 Nice looking place you got there
1) No head studs
2) I didnt know there was a front and rear....I just thought that the rocker shaft oil holes should be facing down toward the head?
3) All the rockers on the driver side head had some damage ( I havent pulled the passenger side yet).
4)Thanks been in the new house for just over a year.
I think he was talking about rocker studs since the oil passage does not intersect a head bolt hole . you have bolts from the pic above , no issue there .
You have alot of open spring pressure for an unbushed rocker , but you need to confirm oil flow . I wouldn't do it bumping over the engine though , pull the dist. and run the pump by hand , be prepared for a mess .
Me , I would take an old junk steel cover , cut off the top , put the rocker shaft and rockers back on and see how much oil oozes out of the assembly once you get the cam in the right spot for the hit or miss oiling , using this method you could do it with the starter , deactivate the coil .
Hey John, Maybe you can school me on something here.
I keep hearing about the hit an miss oiling to the rockers? THe rocker shaft and rockers are fed oil from the oil galley which runs up from the lifter valley correct? Well those galleys in the lifter area lead directly back to the oil pump...Now how is that hit and miss when the pump is running and forcing oil through the lifter galleys up to the heads,rockers and lifters?
The oil for the rockers is coming from the #4 cam bearing. If the bearing hole isn't lined up with the galley or the feeds from the cam to the heads have a restriction of some kind then your oiling could be compromised.
How are the other cam bearings being fed oil?
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