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TNT trouble (sorry long) Update #473887
09/20/09 08:12 PM
09/20/09 08:12 PM
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Clinton Twp, Michigan
DerickS Offline OP
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Just got back from test n tune and i have a question. I changed cams from a MP .508 that went soft to a Comp .508. No other change and I did not swap the 5 year old valve springs. I encountered a lean pop anything over 6000 rpm in the top of any gear. I thought it was just lean and I jetted up, 2 sizes up front and 4 sizes out back and no change in the lean sputter or pop. BTW the car did not slow down either??? Are the springs shot with the new cam even though it is no bigger than the old one??? I did make a gear change a while back and before the car never went over 6100 with the 4.30, now with the 4.56 it traps around 6400 rpm missing from 6000 up. I let out everytime about a 1000 foot. Any help?

Last edited by DerickS; 09/24/09 08:29 AM.
Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: DerickS] #473888
09/20/09 08:28 PM
09/20/09 08:28 PM
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Cedar Rapids, IA
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69Mcode440 Offline
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Spark plugs, maybe or too much timing causing high rpm misfire.

6400 rpm may be pushing it with the hydraulic lifters and old valve springs.


Mike
69 440 Cuda
71 Dart drag car
70 Duster drag car Best et 9.32, 145.9 mph
2019 Ram 2500 4x4
Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: 69Mcode440] #473889
09/20/09 08:47 PM
09/20/09 08:47 PM
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Clinton Twp, Michigan
DerickS Offline OP
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Plugs are only a year old but that is a question. I only had 34 degrees of timing in it, when I bumped it to 36 the car slowed 2mph. I may be having somthing else working here...i'm confused

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: DerickS] #473890
09/20/09 08:49 PM
09/20/09 08:49 PM
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NH
72challorange Offline
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What ignition?

Tom

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: 72challorange] #473891
09/20/09 08:51 PM
09/20/09 08:51 PM
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gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4 Offline
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You have a rev limiter?



it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: DerickS] #473892
09/20/09 09:00 PM
09/20/09 09:00 PM
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Gainesville,FL
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goldmember Offline
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Valve springs would be the first think to check,because the cam has the same lift does not mean the same spring will work.Misfiring through the intake is the clue,sounds like it's hitting a rev limiter?

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: DerickS] #473893
09/20/09 09:08 PM
09/20/09 09:08 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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A motor will not lean pop in every gear unless it is the jetting or a restriction in the fuel supply like the needles and seats or the jets. If it didn't miss before the cam going flat it is probally the valve springs like you suspect The reason I say valve springs is you didn't say which Comp Cam grind you bought, it is very possible that the new cam needs more spring [list] pressure to keep control of the valve train than the old design Mopar cam did It is also possible like some of the other posts say about the ignition, check the plug wires first I have had a motor miss in high gear above 6000 RPMs due to bad spark plug wires

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 09/20/09 11:42 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: Cab_Burge] #473894
09/20/09 09:15 PM
09/20/09 09:15 PM
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Clinton Twp, Michigan
DerickS Offline OP
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The ignition is an MSD 6al and the chip is in at 7000rpm. Fuel pressure down track is a steady 7psi and i had the carb open 6 times to change jets and check over internal parts. The Comp is a .508 lift hyd flat tappet and the springs are comps that were recommened for that cam but I used them on the MP .508 originally. The funny thing is the cars ET is the same as the old cam without the miss! LOL and the Mph is only down 1 mph. I'm just afraid the springs have given up the race. Thanks for the all the ideas

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: DerickS] #473895
09/20/09 09:43 PM
09/20/09 09:43 PM
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Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: 72challorange] #473896
09/20/09 11:47 PM
09/20/09 11:47 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Quote:

You could check the resistance on the 7K chip.

Tom

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=1058548&page=0


I would remove the chip and go out and test it now while your thinking about it. I had a 7000 RPM chip kick in at 5600 RPM on a MSD 7AL2 on a engine dyno test after working fine for more than ten pulls that took soem work to figure out what went wrong, of course that was the last thing we changed I have also seen a lot more chips go bad than that one on the dyno I would try it in 2nd gear Good luck on finding the real cause, please let us know what you find and what fixes it


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: Cab_Burge] #473897
09/21/09 10:00 AM
09/21/09 10:00 AM
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gulfport, ms, west mi
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The reason I asked the rev limiter question was a friend had the same problem. miss at the top end. First thing he thought of was the springs, nope, wires? no, plugs?no switched out the msd box, no, pulled the high limit chip, BINGO!!!!! Give that a try first,good luck


it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: rowin4] #473898
09/21/09 10:17 AM
09/21/09 10:17 AM
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Clinton Twp, Michigan
DerickS Offline OP
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Quote:

The reason I asked the rev limiter question was a friend had the same problem. miss at the top end. First thing he thought of was the springs, nope, wires? no, plugs?no switched out the msd box, no, pulled the high limit chip, BINGO!!!!! Give that a try first,good luck




Thanks, man I hope it that simple! it would make my year!

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: DerickS] #473899
09/21/09 10:37 AM
09/21/09 10:37 AM
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Romeo MI
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Thanks, man I hope it that simple! it would make my year!




You jetted up... did it pick up speed... if so, keep
jetting up.... it could be your springs, the hyd cam
springs dont like rpm much above 6000(too light to handle
the weight).... we had this same problem(my buddies ford
pick up) last week during the Hot Rod Drag Week, we
tightened the pre-load some and it helped a little.
Also you jetted the front 2 jet sizes and the rears
4 sizes... try going up the same amount on each
(if you were in the ball park)

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: MR_P_BODY] #473900
09/21/09 11:03 AM
09/21/09 11:03 AM
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Clinton Twp, Michigan
DerickS Offline OP
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Quote:

Thanks, man I hope it that simple! it would make my year!




You jetted up... did it pick up speed... if so, keep
jetting up.... it could be your springs, the hyd cam
springs dont like rpm much above 6000(too light to handle
the weight).... we had this same problem(my buddies ford
pick up) last week during the Hot Rod Drag Week, we
tightened the pre-load some and it helped a little.
Also you jetted the front 2 jet sizes and the rears
4 sizes... try going up the same amount on each
(if you were in the ball park)





It didnt pick up at all....the reason I staggered it front to back so much was because it still has a 3.5 PV up front. I started at 76/82 and ended up at 78/86 and it did not pick up or slow down for that matter. I couldnt run anymore than 32-34 degrees of timing either, i put in 38 and it seemed to hurt it and dropped 2 mph...I've been going over the timeslips and i'm coming up with more ideas. The current cam is ground on a 108 and manfu recommended installed at 104...the old one was ground 108 and installed 106. could this new cam be building more cylinder pressure causing me detonation problems? I have no real numbers but the TRW's are approx 18 thou out of the hole and i'm using a 40 thou fel pro, the heads are 308's with maybe one or two clean up cuts on them...where's my comp ratio most likly at??? With the old cam and no other changes i could run 40 degree's or timing on 93 octane

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: DerickS] #473901
09/21/09 11:43 AM
09/21/09 11:43 AM
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Michigan
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Hemiroid Offline
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This appears to be a simple case of operator error!

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: Hemiroid] #473902
09/21/09 11:53 AM
09/21/09 11:53 AM
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Clinton Twp, Michigan
DerickS Offline OP
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Quote:

This appears to be a simple case of operator error!




Its a brain malfunction, clearly i should have sold this car years ago!

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: DerickS] #473903
09/21/09 12:52 PM
09/21/09 12:52 PM
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My 70 340 ran best with 32 degree's with the 509 if the 509 is old it is a racer brown model I'm talking mid late 70s. The Comp is definitly building more cylinder pressure. Have you tried 30 total and or racing gas? at least 100 octane? Just curious, I also had 340 do the same thing and it was the valve springs but I would check the timing before going threw the hastle

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: Paul_Fancsali] #473904
09/21/09 01:06 PM
09/21/09 01:06 PM
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Gilbert, AZ
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I had the same problem about three years ago. After a lot of jetting changes it turned out to be the plugs. If pulling the chip out doesn't work, changing the plugs is a cheap way to go. By the way, my Duster is running 11.70's now.

Good luck,

Raul

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: Paul_Fancsali] #473905
09/21/09 01:22 PM
09/21/09 01:22 PM
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Clinton Twp, Michigan
DerickS Offline OP
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Quote:

My 70 340 ran best with 32 degree's with the 509 if the 509 is old it is a racer brown model I'm talking mid late 70s. The Comp is definitly building more cylinder pressure. Have you tried 30 total and or racing gas? at least 100 octane? Just curious, I also had 340 do the same thing and it was the valve springs but I would check the timing before going threw the hastle




I was caught off guard by the problems so i went up in timing instead of down and had no access to race gas even if I thought of it but I think you are on to something

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: Aspen7695] #473906
09/21/09 01:23 PM
09/21/09 01:23 PM
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Clinton Twp, Michigan
DerickS Offline OP
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Quote:

I had the same problem about three years ago. After a lot of jetting changes it turned out to be the plugs. If pulling the chip out doesn't work, changing the plugs is a cheap way to go. By the way, my Duster is running 11.70's now.

Good luck,

Raul




Raul thats awesome i'm glad your car is running so well!

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: DerickS] #473907
09/24/09 08:32 AM
09/24/09 08:32 AM
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Clinton Twp, Michigan
DerickS Offline OP
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I tried some 110 with no effect and I pulled the MSD chip with no effect then I decided to check the 6 month old Cap and rotor that I figured wasnt an issue. The small ball that rides the rotor tang was burned flat and there was a large burn spot on the tang. I only had another used cap and rotor to try but it made an instant difference. I'll get a new cap and rotor this week and see if thats it. What would make an MSD cap/rotor go bad that fast??

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: DerickS] #473908
09/24/09 08:47 AM
09/24/09 08:47 AM
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Romeo MI
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Quote:

I tried some 110 with no effect and I pulled the MSD chip with no effect then I decided to check the 6 month old Cap and rotor that I figured wasnt an issue. The small ball that rides the rotor tang was burned flat and there was a large burn spot on the tang. I only had another used cap and rotor to try but it made an instant difference. I'll get a new cap and rotor this week and see if thats it. What would make an MSD cap/rotor go bad that fast??




It could have been a slight gap between the ball
and rotor to cause a arc.... or alot of tension
on the rotor and ball or if it had moisture on it.
Glad you found your problem.... how long has it been
in there

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: MR_P_BODY] #473909
09/24/09 09:03 AM
09/24/09 09:03 AM
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Clinton Twp, Michigan
DerickS Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

I tried some 110 with no effect and I pulled the MSD chip with no effect then I decided to check the 6 month old Cap and rotor that I figured wasnt an issue. The small ball that rides the rotor tang was burned flat and there was a large burn spot on the tang. I only had another used cap and rotor to try but it made an instant difference. I'll get a new cap and rotor this week and see if thats it. What would make an MSD cap/rotor go bad that fast??




It could have been a slight gap between the ball
and rotor to cause a arc.... or alot of tension
on the rotor and ball or if it had moisture on it.
Glad you found your problem.... how long has it been
in there





Moisture my be the culprit with the open hood, it is not sealed to the carb...the cap was only on six months old but I drove the car in damp cold weather early in the year.

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: DerickS] #473910
09/24/09 11:21 AM
09/24/09 11:21 AM
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land of 10,000______'s
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Hey Derick,
What does it run in the 1/4?

New cap and rotor will be a
cheap fix. Good luck and lot
of fun with it!


Snap your neck, mega G-force launch, is all I want!
Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: BDS871Cuda] #473911
09/24/09 11:48 AM
09/24/09 11:48 AM
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Clinton Twp, Michigan
DerickS Offline OP
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Quote:

Hey Derick,
What does it run in the 1/4?

New cap and rotor will be a
cheap fix. Good luck and lot
of fun with it!




Its nothing exciting actually rather slow! With it missing I couldnt make a full pass and it ran 12.00's at 109mph and change. So I think if I get it straightened out high 11's maybe.

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: DerickS] #473912
09/24/09 04:20 PM
09/24/09 04:20 PM
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Dallas, TX
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440Brian Offline
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I see it's a MSD cap and rotor, but what brand distributor is it? I might check the play of top end of the distributor shaft.

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: 440Brian] #473913
09/24/09 04:33 PM
09/24/09 04:33 PM
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Clinton Twp, Michigan
DerickS Offline OP
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Quote:

I see it's a MSD cap and rotor, but what brand distributor is it? I might check the play of top end of the distributor shaft.




Its the MSD distributor too...how much play shpuld I have with it?

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: DerickS] #473914
09/24/09 08:37 PM
09/24/09 08:37 PM
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Ohio
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You have a beautiful car!!!! My small block does that to the cap and rotor also. Something I ran into with the MSD 6al and MSD distributor, is I had random misses up high over 5500 . MSD tech told me to get shielded cable between box and Dist. $18.00 at Jegs, fixed it.

Re: TNT trouble (sorry long) [Re: Lil Wedge] #473915
09/25/09 12:02 AM
09/25/09 12:02 AM
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Clinton Twp, Michigan
DerickS Offline OP
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Quote:

You have a beautiful car!!!! My small block does that to the cap and rotor also. Something I ran into with the MSD 6al and MSD distributor, is I had random misses up high over 5500 . MSD tech told me to get shielded cable between box and Dist. $18.00 at Jegs, fixed it.




Thank you I appreciate the compliment A shielded cable huh...never heard of it but i will look into it tomorrow thanks!

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