I could donate my 74 challenger, pull the numbers 360 and drop the race 446 / 727 in it in a week ( at least my kid and his BIL could-LOL) from the cuda. Engine is a 13.3:1 eddy headed, 2" TTI that ran 10.80@123 with about 85% throttle blade opening ( pedal out of adjustment) and it should be right at 625 hp as we hoped......

Could trailer it down south to you, only about 8 hrs away from us, 2 tanks of gas and a few SL days...lol

I think with sticky's it could be right at 10.60's with a set of 3:91's from my shop...the charger it was in was probably 300 lbs less weight than the chally.

Allen

Well, this thread has made me think we should see if we can't offer our Level II setup in a more economical configuration - to make it within reach of more people.

That ball has already been set in motion.

So, give me a few weeks and we'll be releasing some new versions with lower points of entry on the cost side. Will likely be a bit more than RMS setup, but much closer.

I'm making an assumption here, that I really should be asking you guys: If we get the XV Level II closer to RMS on the cost side, but still a bit more, will more of you be interested in buying it?

Right now we are offering it only one way - best of everything. We can definitely change some pieces out and try and push down some of our costs on others as well.

There are some other VERY interesting configurations we've looked at as well that we can do easily.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
John

---

Yes!!! Very interested!!

does it have to be a package deal? I can understand required components such as springs when you get the shocks. What about other things?
Do you offer the stiffening pieces separately? What about offering the K frame and rack together and allowing the user to source the related mass-produced items such as the GM suspension parts and more cost effective shocks and springs?
Break it into bite size pieces that are much easier to digest.

Many people on this board have over $20,000 in their cars but not very many of them dropped that cash all at once.

Sorry, My mistake.

We are on opposite coasts, I thought you were LA based.

My car is all stock, but I do wish I had the coin to make a nice driver out of it.

The plan is to get the stock drivetrain back after a 15 year hibernation, then start upgrades to make it a driver on my 65 mi x 2 commute to the bay area. If the stock 360 isn't up to snuff I have a mild 440 / 727 to go into it with ported 906's and 1975 doug thorley chrome 2" headers from my cuda . Both of my cars sat garaged for many years, the cuda was 20 years in hibernation.

Back on topic. Hopefully you can get a local car and show us what we can accomplish with your suspension upgrades. They look very nice.

Congrats on the hemi build, and them thinking they needed to do the teardown...lol. My 05 5.7 truck astounds me when I need to outrun foreign-car commuters.

Allen

Ok, I'll bite. That's correct, I don't post much here anymore. My experience here has been that while most people ask questions, they already "know" what they're talking about and only want to read replies that reinforce what they believe. If anyone contradicts what they believe, it turns into a firestorm - I love chatting about suspension in general, and a lively debate is fun, but plain ole' arguing is not for me, so I avoid it.
I’ve been paying close attention for a long time now, and frankly, I’m awfully shocked that so many people are star-struck by that video, while never seeing the obvious.
The XV testing was an excellent educational video of what it takes to compete in pro-class, big sponsor racing. It also made clear that XV’s stiffening kit would be a great purchase – instead of blindly welding in reinforcements all over the place until the flexing is stopped, you can now buy a little bag of pieces that go right into the key areas – huge time saver.
But don’t confuse chassis stiffening items with suspension items. I could put all the same pieces together and call it an engineered kit – after years of working on these cars, most mopar builders can rattle off the problem areas without ever saying the words “engineered” or “proprietary”. Most of them already reinforce the same areas on their own. It’s still a huge time saver though, so I think the stiffening kit is a great idea for anyone that’s new to these cars.
The part that no one seems to notice is that a lot of the testing surrounded matching springs, shock valving, brake sizing, ect., to the car. That’s great stuff for THAT PARTICULAR car. On a daily basis, I deal with cars that appear identical, but vary in weight by more than 500lbs – sometimes with no explanation. Maybe one has a/c, a lot of dynamat and maybe some amps in the trunk, while the other does not. I had a 70 hemi cuda here this year that weighed in at 4208lbs, while another similar 70 hemi cuda only showed 3580lbs. My 69 iron-440 Dart weighs 3040lbs, but I have a buddy with a 340 Dart and it weighs 3425lbs. Knowing the engine and make of the car has no bearing at all on what it might weigh. But if you call XV, both hemi cudas will get the same components, which of course will only be a “match” to a car that weighs very close to the one XV tested. Or, if you don’t run the same tires and wheel sizes they tested on, you’ll also end up out of the “matched” category. Most of the pavement racers I know are pulling shocks apart if there’s a 50lb weight change. They also have different sets of shocks for different tracks, because at that level of perfection, small things make a big difference. If you run on a different piece of road than the track testing was done on, the settings will be off. You’re not going to know this because the parts are so much better than the generic stuff most of you are used to, it will be a massive improvement anyway. But I guess it’s ok, as long the TV show says they’re matched, it must be true.
As for the suspension side of things, again, attention must be paid to the underlying functions, not the million-dollar simulator it was parked on. Suspension must be very rugged to withstand daily street use or road race conditions – drag racing has simple requirements in the front, which I don’t really concentrate on – I have more fun turning the wheels. If I was an engine guy, drag racing would be my area of interest.
Anyway, suspension has to be durable, bind-free, the moving parts need to be flex-free, and the geometry has to be optimized.
Well, I felt there was a better, simpler way than doing all that cutting and welding, especially on cars that are getting ever-more rare. The shock tower design I came up with, along with the material sizes we used, provided all the structural integrity the suspension needed, without altering the car, weakening it, or putting any forces where they shouldn’t be. At that point, the frame satisfied all the design requirements, so there was no need to over-complicate it. Some people, actually most people these days, think that because something has an important job, it has to be complicated and analyzed by million-dollar computers. It only has to be analyzed by someone that knows what the end results should be. Computer simulations cut years off of development time, but since I’m about 6 years beyond the development stage, it’s just not a thought to me at this point. Yep, it looks like the XV frame is more rigid, but it doesn’t really matter. Once a part is strong enough to withstand it’s intended use, going further is silly. Sorry I had no TV show so everyone could watch me go through it all. I really didn’t think any of it was worth a DVD.

So now that there’s a frame that performs the proper functions, the next item to work out is geometry. There’s simple software to fine-tune all of that in an afternoon, although I admit it’s a lot of fun to play with, so even after 8 years, I’m still always trying different dimensions to see what will happen – the geometry is maxed out already though, so none of my play-time lately has warranted any real design changes. Pivot points and control arms are a simple matter to figure out – just sound principles and good materials, all of which are well-known throughout the industry. After a while, you’ll start to notice similar designs are used everywhere in all kinds of suspensions, street to race, GM, ford, mopar, imports – eventually, most companies end up with the same conclusions as to what works best. Recently, there’s been a shift towards the vette stuff, primarily because it’s inexpensive, easy to get, and frees up a lot of labor time. Of course they’re good parts also. Splined sway bars are also very cool – and very adjustable. If you’re on a track every weekend, and have the patience to really tune with different bars, it’s a useful device. If you’re not competing for blood, a regular bar works just great – the bent bars we use are sized specifically to provide a certain amount of roll resistance with our suspension design.. yea, I guess you could say it’s a “matched” component – to the suspension though, on an average-weight car – a 3000lb car is a bit stiff with the bar, while a 4000lb car could use a bit more. We tested lots of sizes on the road and in the software, and the current size was the best compromise between roll resistance and driver comfort. I could make more sizes, but the cost of them would go up, which is always a key priority. If you want to pay, I’d be happy to make up a specific bar thats closer to your need. No big deal.
Is the use of aluminum a great marketing ploy? Yep. Is it better? Nope. Using aluminum requires thicker sections, which puts the weight of the items similar to that of comparable strength steel – it’s popular with oem’s because it’s cheaper to manufacture than steel. Ditto for the all-popular chrome-moly stuff out there – after you add threaded ends, balljoints, shocks, rack, ect, the tubing itself is a tiny fraction of the overall weight – did you know a magnum system is only 5lbs lighter than the heavy-wall, mild steel alterktion? Just 5lbs lighter. I know this because I have a few of them here that we had to replace for customers – I wont say why we took them out, or how many a year I replace, but you’d be shocked. Speaking of, those people like to mention how the alterktion has very little wheel travel. In fact, we have 5.5” of wheel travel, which is 1” more than magnum. I can also state that Johns choice of shock length in order to have bumpstops is the silliest statement I’ve heard in a while. The bumpstops are a common item, and in race circles, they’re more used as additional “springs” at the limit of wheel travel, not so much as bottom-out protectors – I have a box full here if anyone needs them. Just an off the shelf shock length too I’m sure – 5” travel it looks to be, with the extended top. Doesn’t matter what the valving is – without corner weights the valving is still just a guess. Although the AFCO, er… XV shocks are a good quality piece. The Ididit, er..I mean XV columns look nice too, except you may not know this John, but a lot of people are telling me they’re far from a bolt-in. Perhaps you’re forgetting to tell people about the GM wiring plugs on them? Might want to revise the sales pitch a tad. Oh wait, there was that comment about the modern sealed, large diameter bearings. Come on now – how many guys are building these cars for a 200 lap race? And more importantly, if the corvette spindles had regular bearing sizes, would you have designed bigger bearings? I doubt it. It’s just the basic vette bearing that fits the off the shelf a-arms and spindles you’re using, nothing more.
Speaking of…about that initial bulleted sales pitch on the first page..
--- The first one, designed for street/handling – ditto
---- Next, impossible – “dialed in” is a silly statement – what did you dial? XV phone home.. LOL Although I can admit it’s a great term to use when you want to be impressive without actually saying anything.
---- Next one – track tested, street tested – ditto – in fact, some of my early systems have over 60,000 miles on the original parts, including bushings and rod ends – yep even the rod ends that some seem to think will explode in the presence of a public highway – it’s not the part, it’s the type of part that matters. The parts we make now are at least 300% better than the first ones we did, so durability hasn’t been a question in years.
---- mandrel bent frame – you mean mandrel bent crossbar…just one piece. Does non-mandrel bending ruin things? Nope. In fact, with square material, it creates stiffening ribs on the inside radius, creating a part that actually stronger than a comparable mandrel bent piece. Mandrel looks a little bit nicer, but it’s certainly nothing to have a party about.
--- 4-post rig for shocks/spring rates – see paragraph above.
--- sway bars – see above.
--- geometry – you could’ve saved A LOT of money if you used the $1000 software like everyone else and finished with a bit more road testing – same results, just takes a month or two longer, and you’d be able to use more technical terms than “dialed in”….
---- variable rate racks are cool, but not a very big deal. We only use MII manual racks. The power racks we use were designed for SCCA use in certain class vehicles and perform about as good as anything on the market right now. In fact, they work well enough that we often find ourselves at odds with 5 major producers of ford/chevy suspension systems, as we’re all needing large numbers of the same rack – if these racks were flawed in any way, every highway in the country would be littered with broken muscle cars by now.
--- chassis stiffening – different subject, see above.
--- bumpsteer adjustment – we use existing points to mount everything without any fab work after the sale, so we could easily design the system without bumpsteer and eliminate one more issue for the customer. If you want to add bumpsteer characteristics for track use, cut the welded part down and I’ll send a cool little spacer kit to adjust with. I don’t recommend it, but if that’s what you want…… speaking off, I can also adjust the height of the rack with certain bolt-on pieces I carry here, so if it’s bump adjustment you want, anything’s possible. Un-necessary, but possible.
----- Yep, killer shocks you have, no doubt. Valving, see above, but they’re good shocks no matter how you look at it. We’ve been using AFCO shocks for 5 years now as an optional item, the only problem was, until this year, they weren’t capable of the volumes we needed to use them exclusively, so we had to “settle” for QA1. Lucky you don’t sell much, or you would have been in a bind last year. Although, we dyno’d some QA1’s during the testing, and we all agreed they’re a great shock, especially for the street/handling crowd. Very strange actually – last year everyone on this board was scoffing at the thought of a $150 shock – now they’re demanding $400 ones. Weird people indeed.
--computer modeled brakes specifically for the intended load – what’s the load? If your car weighed 3400lbs, your special brakes with be under-par for the 4200lbs hemi cuda, and if they’re made for a 4200lb car, they’ll be way too ,much for a 3400lb car – right? I mean, if they were SPECIFICALLY designed for a particular application under a particular load, what particular weight car, with what particular coefficient of friction tires will they precisely work on as they’re intended? No one is mentioning a master cylinder in these conversations, which is the primary piece of any brake system – bore size will make or break a good system. Is a matched master part of the level 2 brake kit? Other than that perfect car, seems to me they’d only be as good as the “off the shelf” kits that I can already get and service. Front to rear bias is affected by so many variables it’s impossible to design that specifically for anything other the car in front of you on the piece of road it’s sitting on. Brake companies already design rule of thumb piston sizes front and rear, so I don’t have to worry about it – the big race cars you claim to duplicate use adjustable prop valves for brake bias, and so do the rest of us.

---3-link rear. Ya got me on that one. It’s the most effective suspension for a road racing type of car, but not because it’s bind-free – it’s because you can easily adjust the roll center and anti-squat characteristics. You’re a racer John, I KNOW you know this – why not say it? All this proprietary, top-secret stuff is getting weird. I’m choosing triangulated 4 bar stuff because it’s easy to install, well balanced with modern front suspension, and easy to adjust for alignment purposes. I have to design in the roll center and anti-squat dimensions, so that will be non adjustable, but as long as it’s designed correctly, all but the most competitive top-class cars will have very successful results with it…and they can keep the stock floor. My choice of not building a 3-link has nothing to do with lack of knowledge, and everything to do with what makes sense for home builders to work with.

I’ll also add that good steering cars were in style long before you popped up on the radar with your TV show, and long before I popped up 9 years ago(are you that arrogant to think you started some trend that we're all scrambling to follow?) – we’ve been building cars that steer for 8 years, over 1000 systems in use in 19 countries, tens of thousands of all-weather street miles, raced on nearly every track in America, not to mention a few tracks verified in Switzerland, Germany, France, Norway, Brazil and who knows where else. In fact, the pivot design on the lower control arms was a direct result of track testing by a Swiss racer. We also have free access to engineering departments at 6 different motor sports manufacturers in all aspects of vehicle design. We don’t have to make appointments and we don’t call camera crews – I can just call whenever I feel like going over design ideas, and all kinds of friendly engineers are happy to help. Full analysis of whatever runs through my head is just a fax away. No trumpets blowing, no walmart-sized show rooms, just plain ole parts that work. If that’s not enough proof, you guys will never have enough. As for my disclaimer of off-road use, it’s common across the aftermarket to protect against insurance lawsuits. Look at parts when you buy them – 90% of them state off-highway use in one form or another. If you run a red light in your super bee and kill somebody, everybody gets sued, from the company that made your sunglasses all the way down to the company that made your tires – unless the company has a disclaimer, and even at that it can be a very expensive journey. I’m not losing my house because some doofus talking on a cell phone didn’t see a red light under his sunvisor. If I lose Devil’s sale because of it, no problem – I’d rather keep my house than gain a sale.
ALSO NOTE – THERE IS NO DOT-CERT for chassis parts – NONE – only flexible brake lines. This is good to remember when you see some brake companies spouting about their DOT approved calipers. Pure scam, you know who you are.

And let me also add, John, that you might notice I had nothing to say up until this point – I kept my mouth shut for over a year about my opinions, assuming we’re all respectable people and could let the parts speak for themselves. I hate conflict, and avoid it whenever possible, which is why I rarely post on forums any more. You say you wont pick apart the other companies here, but today, 3 different people called me to order suspensions, and all three mentioned salespeople at XV going on about how flawed the RMS stuff is – YOUR salespeople, whoever they are, forced me to speak up. I got the 3 sales regardless, but it really ticked me off that I’ve kept silent about XV through all this dog and pony show baloney, and ended up in your rumor-mongering crosshairs anyway. Why does everyone have to create drama where there was none? So if any of the above irritates you, keep in mind I was perfectly happy staying quietly under the radar until your staff started making the rude remarks. And to be honest, I’m just not impressed at all that the whole car needs to be butchered up – people would be better served by a Morrison Max-G chassis for that kind of dough and fab work. If you have to cut the car to pieces to install a “kit”, it’s not a very well designed kit. You might as well add the full-frame benefits and go all the way.
Does the XV level 2 system work? I have no doubts it performs flawlessly, but there isn’t much impressive about the design over the RMS, except that you have to cut and weld for 50 or so hours, and I’m not so arrogant to think my parts are sprinkled with magic dust. If you can pop 30k to have a level 2 installed by someone qualified, go for it, but is all that necessary to run circles around a vette? Certainly not. Unless the car is identical to the tested car, the matched components are no better than similar quality shelf units. All else is so close to being equal, pitting one system against the other would result in similar results.
In the beginning, you stated clearly you had no interest in pitting your parts against others, and had no interest in talking about it because you’re gearing your systems for the high-buck cars, not the low-end customers we cater to, as if the budget minded crowd and the companies that sell parts to them aren’t good enough to even warrant your attention. Now it seems, you and your crew are getting quite aggressive trying to discredit us, since you couldn’t really prove you were better. I’m not paying the builders to stick with us, they’re choosing to. Hundreds of repeat customers, many on 3, 4, 5 or more systems now, just aren’t wrong. They all know about XV, spoke to people on the phone, looked at your information….and called us to order another one. Not my choice – theirs - so what's with all the bad mouthing?

…Proprietary geometry LOL gimme a break. The pictures in this post alone are enough to figure out the curves in that system. There are fewer morons here than you think.

Very well put Bill. I have followed this thread because I am a friend of Bill's, and there are few more honest folks in this hobby. I am not an owner of an AlterK and it is doubtful that I will ever own anybody's aftermarket suspension system due to the way I like to build a car.

I have seen Bill build a customer base by providing over the top customer service and being a perfectionist about quality. That is the reason his customers continue to order. It fits, it works, the first time.

A couple of comments of note worth mentioning in my book:

Quote:

---

" I love chatting about suspension in general, and a lively debate is fun"

" I’m awfully shocked that so many people are star-struck by that video, while never seeing the obvious."

"Some people, actually most people these days, think that because something has an important job, it has to be complicated and analyzed by million-dollar computers."

"Once a part is strong enough to withstand it’s intended use, going further is silly. "


"Is the use of aluminum a great marketing ploy? Yep. Is it better? Nope. Using aluminum requires thicker sections, which puts the weight of the items similar to that of comparable strength steel"

"very strange actually – last year everyone on this board was scoffing at the thought of a $150 shock – now they’re demanding $400 ones. Weird people indeed. "

"As for my disclaimer of off-road use, it’s common across the aftermarket to protect against insurance lawsuits."

" ALSO NOTE – THERE IS NO DOT-CERT for chassis parts – NONE – only flexible brake lines."

"but it really ticked me off that I’ve kept silent about XV through all this dog and pony show baloney, and ended up in your rumor-mongering crosshairs anyway. Why does everyone have to create drama where there was none? "

"I’m not so arrogant to think my parts are sprinkled with magic dust."

Quote:

---

"They all know about XV, spoke to people on the phone, looked at your information….and called us to order another one. Not my choice – theirs - so what's with all the bad mouthing?"

I, for one, have spoken to Bill many times before being with XV, on a variety of issues. He has spent the time on many occassions, more than I can say about many vendors.

However, to be accused of "bad mouthing" is upsetting. This is like a game of telephone, and is not appreciated. The environemnt XV provides is a professional one, where customers often spend lots of time asking questions in detail about our systems. We do our best to answer questions and call back customers when we do not have an answer. In fact, many customers are surprised that we actually call them many times, when they inquire through our site.We are never "rushed" off the phones to make a sale either.

The fact that XV has taken the time and spent the money to create a brand is something no one has done in terms of the Mopar aftermarket, no need for bashing this fact either. We are proud of our product and realize it is not for everyone, which is why there is something called competition.

In the end, the customer wins.

Thank you Bill.

Bill you seem like a class act. Hats off to you!!

You've spoken about your brake setup being designed for the car.
What's wrong with what I've done? I nabbed the brake hardware off a high end high performance car that is heavier than the hot rod. My thinking was that Mercedes wasn't going to flake out on the brakes used on $150,000+ cars. It had to be decent stuff. They spent FAR more money and time figuring out the brakes than what some independant shop would have done.

The hardware definately does the job. I haven't been able to cook the brakes on this setup and it's not for lack of trying.
The car hasn't been on a road course yet but I'm not worried about the brakes fading or failing.