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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end
[Re: 67autocross]
#47081
11/06/07 11:14 AM
11/06/07 11:14 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,024
In the twisties
RokketRide
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,024
In the twisties
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Quote:
The only thing I see wrong with the VX system is they don't have a level 2 set up for the A body cars. As soon as they do thats what I'll be buying.
Ditto.
At least some chassis stiffening for starters 
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end
[Re: Devil]
#47082
11/06/07 01:26 PM
11/06/07 01:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
Lol, you guys are funny. Haven't laughed this hard for a while.
I'm just telling the truth. You guys don't want to accept that, fine. It isn't my problem. My car drives fine and handles well. And I know it isn't going to fall apart.
Quote:
yup, techinically, XV should be using the same disclaimer (off road use only), otherwise they could be opening themselves up to potential lawsuits. a lot of performance parts state "off road use only" due to emissions compliance, too.
XV has gone through and tested their mopars to ensure that their products are streetable. I've seen the tests and the information to back it up. What disclaimer would they need since theirs is streetable? It is out of my price range, but that isn't their fault.
yes, they did do all manner of performance tuning, FEA analysis, etc, but legally speaking, I believe a product must be DOT certified to be technically street legal, and on engine components, they must be compliant to the model year's EPA emission limits to be street legal (and CARB approved to be street legal in california). from the information posted by the XV guys, while they have done a lot of analysis and tuning, they have probably not done a full, comprehensive durability test of their setup, not like the OEM's do (100,000, 200,000, half a million cycles, thousands of on road miles with engineering bucks, etc). not knocking them, but that's the reality--there's no way a relatively small manufacturer of a fairly sophisticated product (like RMS or XV) could afford to do the level of testing that a typical OEM does.
Bill's "Off road use only" disclaimer is probably a legal CYA in case somebody wraps their car around a tree at 150mph and comes back to sue him, the suspension producer.
One thing that makes me wonder a bit about the XV system is the use of corvette LCA's and spindles. good pieces, yes, but they're designed for a 3250 lb car with 50/50 weight distribution. if you've got yourself a iron headed hemi B body, you may be tipping the scales at near 4000 lbs with more like 65/35 F/R weight distribution. that's loading those front suspension pieces 60-70% more than their original design target. While those pieces probably have enough safety factor built into them (or necessitated by stiffness requirements) for the OEM application that they will still be fine in a occasional use car like a classic mopar probably will be, but don't expect them to have the same life expectancy (essentially infinite life) as you would in the stock application.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s
[Re: feets]
#47084
11/06/07 04:26 PM
11/06/07 04:26 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,912
The Dark Side
Fasbird
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,912
The Dark Side
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Quote:
A direct comparison to the XV product is not possible because they're in two different realms. Bill made a good product that will work for 95% of us. XV went much farther than any of us really expected.
XV targeted the unlimited budget guys.
Bill is aiming at the real world guys.
Feets, your's is the most intelligent remarks made so far.
Patrick is also right on the money. All, as in "anyone" who makes suspension components or aftermarket pieces should be putting the disclaimer of "For Off Road Use Only" on their products for the CYA situation. They're possibly looking for a huge law suit if that isn't done.
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end
[Re: Devil]
#47085
11/06/07 04:43 PM
11/06/07 04:43 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,341
Southern Maryland
klunick
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,341
Southern Maryland
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Quote:
Don't forget that the alterktion front ends are for off road use only and not to be used in daily driver/cruiser applications.
Ryan
Don't tell that to everyone that is driving with them on road and loves them. Perhaps Abodyjoe will chime in. I know mine will be street driven 95% of the time and I discussed this at length and Bill personally told me there would be no issues. Also, I don't know anything about the XV product but I will tell you that until a year or so ago, RMS was the only company out there that did do side by side testing. His product did not start out as you see it now, it developed into what it is now due to his reviewing other products out there. Just my .02
Last edited by klunick; 11/06/07 04:53 PM.
67 Barracuda FB
69 Superbee
"Southern Maryland: If you want a good looking woman, you had better bring her with you"
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s
[Re: feets]
#47086
11/06/07 05:06 PM
11/06/07 05:06 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
A direct comparison to the XV product is not possible because they're in two different realms. Bill made a good product that will work for 95% of us. XV went much farther than any of us really expected.
XV targeted the unlimited budget guys.
Bill is aiming at the real world guys.
Well, this thread has made me think we should see if we can't offer our Level II setup in a more economical configuration - to make it within reach of more people.
That ball has already been set in motion.
So, give me a few weeks and we'll be releasing some new versions with lower points of entry on the cost side. Will likely be a bit more than RMS setup, but much closer.
I'm making an assumption here, that I really should be asking you guys: If we get the XV Level II closer to RMS on the cost side, but still a bit more, will more of you be interested in buying it?
Right now we are offering it only one way - best of everything. We can definitely change some pieces out and try and push down some of our costs on others as well.
There are some other VERY interesting configurations we've looked at as well that we can do easily.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks,
John
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end
[Re: 67autocross]
#47087
11/06/07 05:56 PM
11/06/07 05:56 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
The only thing I see wrong with the VX system is they don't have a level 2 set up for the A body cars. As soon as they do thats what I'll be buying.
It's really hard to rationalize doing it for the A-Body cars. Originally we planned to, but right now it's not in the cards.
The reason is that we have launched products for A-Body cars and so far they really don't sell. Tilt columns - for E-Body I can't keep them in stock. B we sell plenty of as well. So far it hasn't been worth the time/money to have done the A body pieces.
Power window kits is another. I've lost track how many we've sold, primarily for E, but also alot of B-body. A-body again, hasn't been worth the effort at all.
Same with other pieces we have, numbers are many fold more for E and B, over the A.
We had put it out there long ago, if we got enough serious people for Level II A-Body, we'd do it. There's a small number who stood up, but not enough to warrant the resources in time and money. Time is our scarcest resource for getting things done. Some things are easy to do and we just knock them out. But bigger projects, we need to be confident the demand is there.
We've already started a Level II for older Mustangs - most of the work is already done. That'll be done before we have an A-Body product. From a business standpoint it's a bigger market and we have requests all day long for us to start building other kinds of cars, including Mustangs.
If there is enough demand, we'll do almost any platform - within reason. I'm sure you've noticed, we're launching many, many different products. That isn't going to stop. Lot's more in the pipeline and all to the same standards we do things to.
So if you really want us to do A-body, in this case it's a function of people stepping up and saying they are really serious - not just a post here, but get in touch with Peter and tell him you're in if we'll do it. He has a list, which has alot of dust on it and not enough names...
Level II Rear would be easy to do on the A-body. Chassis stiffening is pretty easy as well - some is already started on that. Level II Front is where it's going to require some real time and money to do it right.
John
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s
#47088
11/06/07 06:37 PM
11/06/07 06:37 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 516
Hanover, Ontario, Canada
Moparmatty
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 516
Hanover, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Well, this thread has made me think we should see if we can't offer our Level II setup in a more economical configuration - to make it within reach of more people.
That ball has already been set in motion.
So, give me a few weeks and we'll be releasing some new versions with lower points of entry on the cost side. Will likely be a bit more than RMS setup, but much closer.
I'm making an assumption here, that I really should be asking you guys: If we get the XV Level II closer to RMS on the cost side, but still a bit more, will more of you be interested in buying it?
Right now we are offering it only one way - best of everything. We can definitely change some pieces out and try and push down some of our costs on others as well.
There are some other VERY interesting configurations we've looked at as well that we can do easily.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks,
John
John you have my full attention! I am very interested in what you are talking about. Please keep us informed.
Matt Tebbutt
Ontario, Canada
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s
[Re: Moparmatty]
#47089
11/06/07 06:46 PM
11/06/07 06:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 516
Hanover, Ontario, Canada
Moparmatty
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 516
Hanover, Ontario, Canada
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I also wanted to ask John. How much will these "economical" versions affect the handling of the current Level II set-up?
Matt Tebbutt
Ontario, Canada
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s
#47090
11/06/07 06:47 PM
11/06/07 06:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,133
MD
RTSE4ME
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,133
MD
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Quote:
If we get the XV Level II closer to RMS on the cost side, but still a bit more, will more of you be interested in buying it?
Yes, I would be interested. $10K+ with brakes for the Level II is a little rich for most folks I would imagine. Since, you are using C5 components could you substitute in some more econmical brakes? Or let customer source their own?
Also, you could offer a discounted package deal for someone who purchases both front and rear kits.
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s
[Re: PHJ426]
#47092
11/06/07 08:26 PM
11/06/07 08:26 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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hey "DEVIL" you are only a couple hours away, and this will be a three day weekend. hop in your car and drive down here and we can take a ride in my demon with my rms. i bet you will quit bad mouthing them, and yes we will drive it "on road". heck i will even let you drive it unless it makes you neverous to drive a car with "off road" only parts. just an invite. 
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s
[Re: PHJ426]
#47093
11/06/07 09:06 PM
11/06/07 09:06 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
John,
I would probably help to let the consumers know what kind of real world difference on the road and track can be expected from the different levels of suspensions XV is producing.
Say like an "average" 60 to 0 braking test is feet for the different brake kits I know most of the kits will be tested with hydra boost.
Then on the suspension components which levels should see such and such kind of performance.
Also at what level suspension difference will it take a veteran driver on a road course to wring out the difference.....
Especially what will the difference be between Level I, Level II Lite and full out Level II
I would also be interested in what Level I can do with the chassis kit added into the mix.
I think Peter has a Level I kit on his G Machine Dart and he says he usually can run in the middle of the road with the Porsche crowd on track days.
Thanks
To do all those comparisons will increase what I can sell our current setup for. We won't do back to back testing of the different pieces. Possibly some groups of components, but not sure even on that. However, we have more information than anyone on what works and what doesn't from all the testing we've already done. That testing wasn't back and forth tothe grocery store using the butt-o-meter either.
On the road differences won't be significant, it is on track where they will be seen. If you're talking about brakes for example, the brakes we have now won't have fade, lap after lap under hard conditions. For the average driver, this doesn't matter and if you're doing average track driving it won't be significant either. The brakes we are using are full on, hardcore road race quality in a huge way - road race championships are being won with them.
For the guy who is looking to really press it, lap after lap, it will matter - or if you are racing. Braking distance, without testing I'd only be guessing.
One difference on the brakes is you'll need a proportioning valve with the alternatives. With all the track time we've done and testing etc., we are not running any proportioning valve because the brakes are designed for the vehicle to deliver proper balance under hard braking. The entire system is sized for the applications, right down to the piston sizes in the calipers.
We will never use junk components, so no need to worry about that. There are different levels of products that can be used. What we have now is amongst the best.
A novice drive is unlikely to even know what they are looking for in terms of handling, unless it is glaring. There's an old adage in racing, which is very true - you need to improve the driver as well as the car. So, throwing the best possible parts on a car doesn't mean you'll be the fastest. The driver is a big part of the equation and the incremental benefit of the parts/setup may not show with a less experienced/skilled driver.
The other systems offer upgrades, we'll end up doing something similar, except they will be downgrades - LOL. I can tell you this, on some of the components we will never offer what is being used on other systems - especially shocks, because we have road race experience and would never consider them. We can get cost down on those, but we'll have something that works well - and will be based upon OUR specs and testing. I really want to make sure that our offering at any level can realistically be used on a track.
Our current offering drives like a very capable modern performance car. Smooth, predictable, responsive and no bump-steer. I want to preserve that as much as possible.
Let me put packages together, define the components and we'll do our best to define how they will perform. My guess is the other guys will start scrambling for better shocks, etc., if they haven't already.
One combination I think will be very interesting is our Level I front setup all dialed in, with our Level II rear. Everyone is focused on the front of the cars, but I'd be willing to guess that the wrong end of the car has been the priority in terms of actual handling. I think the T-Bar setup can be made to work better than a leaf sprung rear. As far as the rears go, everything else is even further behind us...but don't even know it, or why...
Just to be clear - Peter's Dart does not have any XV suspension parts on it. We don't have any XV suspension pieces for A-Body's at this time. The setup on his car is Peter's own combinations he put together.
Please don't confuse Peter's setup with XV product.
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end
#47094
11/06/07 09:40 PM
11/06/07 09:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,024
In the twisties
RokketRide
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,024
In the twisties
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Quote:
Level II Rear would be easy to do on the A-body. Chassis stiffening is pretty easy as well - some is already started on that. Level II Front is where it's going to require some real time and money to do it right.
Quote:
One combination I think will be very interesting is our Level I front setup all dialed in, with our Level II rear. Everyone is focused on the front of the cars, but I'd be willing to guess that the wrong end of the car has been the priority in terms of actual handling. I think the T-Bar setup can be made to work better than a leaf sprung rear.
John,
I think putting these quotes together from two different posts could be a winning idea. I talked to Scott over at your shop once upon a time about A-Body stuff, he gave me the idea that something like 10 orders could get us there.
Is that the number? Maybe even a presale could get the ball rolling depending on interest.
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s
[Re: Moparmatty]
#47095
11/06/07 09:49 PM
11/06/07 09:49 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I also wanted to ask John. How much will these "economical" versions affect the handling of the current Level II set-up?
Without testing, no way to know for sure. However, we have alot we've learned from all the testing, track time and street time we've done. So we're not just pulling parts and throwing them at it.
We know how shocks need to be valved, we know what spring rates to use, etc. Brakes, shocks and springs are easy places to get costs down, but still have good pieces that are matched to the application, not off the shelf. We can use cheaper springs, the rates are the same.
I can pretty much guarantee we have the best geometry (which we will not disclose) and contrary to what others may think our setup is by far the stiffest. On the rear nothing else is even remotely close. All the engineering will still be there and it will still be matched, dialed in components.
It's been a while since we reviewed our costs on all the other components as well. As we get volumes up, costs go down, so it's probably a good time to review that now as well.
We can defintely get the price down a noticeable amount going through the full exercise.
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end
[Re: RokketRide]
#47098
11/06/07 09:56 PM
11/06/07 09:56 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
Level II Rear would be easy to do on the A-body. Chassis stiffening is pretty easy as well - some is already started on that. Level II Front is where it's going to require some real time and money to do it right.
Quote:
One combination I think will be very interesting is our Level I front setup all dialed in, with our Level II rear. Everyone is focused on the front of the cars, but I'd be willing to guess that the wrong end of the car has been the priority in terms of actual handling. I think the T-Bar setup can be made to work better than a leaf sprung rear.
John,
I think putting these quotes together from two different posts could be a winning idea. I talked to Scott over at your shop once upon a time about A-Body stuff, he gave me the idea that something like 10 orders could get us there.
Is that the number? Maybe even a presale could get the ball rolling depending on interest.
That's very interesting - I hadn't thought about it as a way to offer an A-body package. It's way easier than doing the full Level II front for the A. Level I front and Level II rear, all dialed in isn't such a big deal to do, nor is the chassis stiffening.
To do a full Level II for the A-body I definitely would be looking for pre-sales of like 10 kits.
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s
#47099
11/06/07 09:58 PM
11/06/07 09:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,133
MD
RTSE4ME
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,133
MD
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Quote:
One combination I think will be very interesting is our Level I front setup all dialed in, with our Level II rear. Everyone is focused on the front of the cars, but I'd be willing to guess that the wrong end of the car has been the priority in terms of actual handling. I think the T-Bar setup can be made to work better than a leaf sprung rear. As far as the rears go, everything else is even further behind us...but don't even know it, or why...
That would be perfect setup for me since I have alredy spent a few dollars on the front. I could keep 75% of what already has been done...brakes,UCAs,steering box. The only rear upgrade I have is shocks.
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Re: Alterkation, XV Level II and MagnumForce front end ?'s
[Re: PHJ426]
#47100
11/06/07 10:18 PM
11/06/07 10:18 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
John, Sorry about the line about Peter's Dart. Just shooting for some frame of reference.
One last question about the front suspension.
In a heavy car like mine 72 B body, if Im taking it to the road course say 3 or 4 times a season and doing some brackets at the local 1/4 mile a few times a year also with the rest of the time 75% on the street with it which set up would you run on the car?
Maybe just the Level I front and the Level II rear?
Add in a firmer feel steering box the tightest one they make. I know adding a rack would improve the feel of the car many times over vs the recirculating ball gear box.........
What are your thoughts on this?
Level I front / Level II rear will definitely work well. Best part is it's all done and you have an upgrade path going forward if you want to do full Level II later on.
We've mentioned previously that we were planning on doing a drag package. I won't go into the details, but we know we can do a derivation of our Level II rear that will work way better than Super Stock springs and a pinion snubber for drag racing. Could easily be used as double duty with some adjustment and easy swaps - drag and road race/handling.
We could demo it really quick, but want like a 10 second drag car to do this on with SS springs. Would much rather show it on a platform where getting more gains is harder.
Anyway, we have more tricks in our bag. This is one instance where it can be made to do double duty very well.
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