ok i know this one has been beat to death but humor me i am on the fence here 70 charger 400+6 354 dana I want to drive nthis car alot and on long raod trips so what is the fit and function of the keisler trans?

floor hump problems?
shifter come out in stock 4 speed loation?
factory console problems? ( fatory 4 speed)
can stock bellhousing and clutch linkage be used?
smooth shifting quiet dependalbe trans?

what is the pros and cons of this application vrsus the passon 4 over drive or the gear venders on the back of the 18 spline 4 gear?

Depends. Do you currently run a manual trans or auto? If you already have a manual trans setup in the car I would go with the passon gearset just because it's proven heavy duty setup and a lot cheaper to swap in a gearset than a whole new tremec trans.

The keisler tremec is supposed to be a good piece and yes they make the shifter in the stock location so once your console is on you'd never know the difference. Stock clutch linkage can be used and they can redrill your 833 bellhousing to work. Everything fits under the factory 4-speed hump.

i have a good 18 spline shifter rods etc the whole works but was wantint the overdrive isnt the passon a 3 speed with an 4th overdrive? what is the gear spread between 3rd and 4th ?

You will still have to cut and alter your factory 4speed hump as the shifter does not come out in the exact factory location.

On a '70 B-body car that is already a factory 4 speed car, our shifter will come out in the factory correct location WITHOUT CUTTING the tunnel. You will have to relocate the opening the floor over to the center line but the shifter handle will still come out in the factory correct location and will fit perfectly in the console.
The factory linkage will work but the bell housing will need to have the TKO bolt pattern in it and the register hole opening in the back of the bell will need to be re-sized to accept the bearing retainer of the TKO.

As far as the pro's and con's verses the Passon unit or the Gear Vendors unit.....I have no real world experience with either of those so I cannot comment. I do know that Passon makes one heck of a great gearbox though.




Richard
Tech Support

I guess that makes the Tremec 5 speed a 4 speed with a 5th overdrive then. right?

that is right tremic 5 spd is a 4spd with od dude

richard is correct in what he is saying in that the handle is in the factory position. i have a 70 b body and i had to open up the tunnel, not much. if you are concerned about keeping the car factory don't use the keisler, but then again the passion will not be factory either. i really like the keisler set up. any mods that are necessary are minor and worth the improved driveability. 2nd to 3rd at first was a problem with speed shifting. richard helped a bunch with that. now 2nd to 3rd is as fast as 1st to 2nd. i don't rev past 5800rpm and aside from a small leak it's the best thing i have done to the car to make it fun to drive. at first i had some issues however, if you work with richard he will make sure that you are good to go. and no i do not work for keisler. it's a great product and richard is the only one there that you want to work with. 1800rpm at 65 and 20mpg

Yes you have to chop up your trans tunnel , I know it sucks . I almost sent it back when I seen the instructions .I dont like butchering up my car .However I like to drive it around and I got tired of fixing a 40 year old trans so i put it in . Best upgrade to my car yet . gets close to 20 on hiway now in B body with 451 in it .It shifts tight and positive , more like click click . I wouldnt waste my money on a 45 year trans anymore .

Quote:

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Yes you have to chop up your trans tunnel , I know it sucks . I almost sent it back when I seen the instructions .I dont like butchering up my car .However I like to drive it around and I got tired of fixing a 40 year old trans so i put it in . Best upgrade to my car yet . gets close to 20 on hiway now in B body with 451 in it .It shifts tight and positive , more like click click . I wouldnt waste my money on a 45 year trans anymore .

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Agreed.

I attached 1 picture to the post above and the 2nd picture to this post showing the only tunnel mod needed AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THE FACTORY 4 SPEED HUMP INSTALLED.

I've run both of the overdrive set ups. I can tell first had that the Passon trany is the only way to go, it fits, looks stock, and is bullet proof. If your biulding a street rod and want the modified look, then run rhe keisler set up. If your running a nasty big block, only the Passon will take the punishment. one more thing, the Passon doesn't have a top plate that is LEAK prone, so for a stock, dry, install the passon is the only way to go.

Here is a final picture of the '70 Charger that started life as an automatic and now has our TKO in it.

Can you tell the tunnel has been modified to fit a TKO?







Richard
Tech Support

After talking with a rep from TREMAC and playing with there TKO trany I must admit I like it. It shifted quickly and smoothly. I like the short throws and the fact that the linkage is enclosed in the case as to give more side clearance around the trany. Yes that will mean with the shifter linkage being in the centerline of the trany it will require some mods to the trany hump. You have shown what is needed on top and how nice the finished product can look but I'm wondering how much of the underside needs to be reworked. I was told the bracing that runs under an A-Body will get in the way and require "adjustment". How much adjustment is my concern. Oh and by the way the TREMAC rep recomended Keisler to go thru as you guys know what you are doing.

Yes, A-bodies are completely different and differ from what I have posted so far in this thread.
The torsion bar crossmember on an A-body car must be modified in order for the TKO to fit. Our new cross member replaces the factory one, and strengthens that area so nothing is compromised with regards to rigidity.

Because the TKO is an internal linkage system, we have no way to go around the torsion bar and therefore, you must modify it to get the TKO high enough in the tunnel to connect back to the transmission cross member and keep the driveline angles correct.

I have attached a pic of an A-body modification needed. The pic was from a customer of mine who was kind enough to send it to me back in '05 when I first started.





Richard
Tech Support

I made the decision to go with the Keisler kit so I could enjoy driving my 'Cuda with 4:10 gears. This turned out to be the single best mod that I made to my car. The trans gearing is perfect thru all the gears. More than met my expectations. I can cruise 70-75 mph with ease. This also is the smoothest shifting trans I have ever had in an old Mopar. No regrets here, and if I do another car I will do it again. IMO whatever small installation mods that are needed will be well worth the end result.

I have a Keisler in my Challenger. One of the best mods I have done. I think it is the perfect setup for guys that have modified their cars and want to drive them. Most all will need some minior mods to install properly.

If you really don't want to cut your car I would by a Passon. This would be the perfect setup for guys that want to drive their cars and keep them original as possible.

If I had high HP car I wouldn't bother with either. I would invest in a Jerico, G-Force or Lenco.

I have the heavy duty keisler set up in my 70 convertable challenger and absolutly love it. Shifts like butter and fifth gear cruses at 75 with ease.

Wow!,....A Keisler thread, I almost missed this one! .......(OP) Doug I know we hashed this one out before choosing a stick for your 70 Tona",......and seeing how your car is highly modified, and you like to drive'em,....IMHO the Keisler TKO is your best bang for the buck,....if you were a "numbers matching" afraid of altering the car kind of guy, the Passon box would be your only choice,.....the TKO 600/650 .64 OD 5 spd would be the optimum box for your ride based on your driveline,........I have the TKO 600/650 .64 5 spd in my personal Tona', to do it "right", factory 4 spd hump, console or not!, you need the room, my Keisler was an early prototype fit for the 68-70 B body, so I was a guinea pig for the fit, seeing that I had plenty of experience fitting other bodies with Keislers equipment,.....and while you could fit, and I have, the keisler TKO into the automatic floor tunnel, using their supplied sheetmatal adapter panel,...I've found from an installation as well as service point, that it's best to install the factory 4 spd hump, you'll need to seal up the factory 4 spd shifter hole, and relocate it's centerline approx 3" to the center of the hump from the original opening, not needed, but usefull, is to split the center transmission hump from the new shifter opening, up to the firewall/floor seam, about 18" in length, open up the floor and install a wedge measuring 2" wide tapering to a point, X 18" long, the 2" wedge being up by the firewall/floor board factory seam, after the carpet is down, or console, you'll never see the mod,....but it dose help as the Keisler is a very "tall" box,....if your running a console the shifter 68-70 styles will exit thru the factor boots, in the factory location, there's a small offset adapter that relocates the sticks properly,........you could run the factory style Z bar and assorted linkage, some fabrication/maching will be do on your part, to truly "dial-in" the linkage for correct geometry,.....I'd highly recommend the hyduralic throw-out set up, not so much to do away with any linkage issuses, but the pure simplicity, and "feel" the hyd. set up offers over the Z bar set up,.....I'd also clean up the torsion bar brace, and floorboards, tunnel area where the tranny ocuppies, of any excess factory slop of unneeded edges, flanges, ...basically smooth out the tranny area of useless sheetmetal, as the install is really tight, removeing the shift tower, 2 bolts, greatly aids in installation, it can be bolted on later in the car, from the passenger compartment, during the install, it's best to loosen the motor mount bolts (2) and let the engine tilt back, almost resting on the centerlink (use a 1/2" wood spacer between the pan/link)

Doug,...on the choice of clutch, Keisler likes to "push" the diaphram set-up, which is ok for a "driver", the dual Twin, is no better, I've put it behind Hemis, with no "fondness" for it,...IMHO, if you want a bullet proof set up, although not recommended by Keisler, but offered, is the Sachs 2800 lb BorgBeck style 3 finger pressure plate, with the Sachs Kelvar single disc 11" clutch disc, that's the only set-up I prefere in my personal cars, and with the hyd set-up, you won't feel the incresed pedal effort required

The new Wilwood/FEP hyd. set up is a huge improvement over the older/earlier style, and Keislers pressure testing of the cases before shipment has done away with those pesky leaks of the past

Biggest do's, to assure yourself of a "perfect fit" and function Doug, is to properly dial indicate in the bell housing, Keisler recommends .005 runout Max,....but I find .001-.002 MAX much more preferable, as the TKO is extremely tight on internal tolerances, no room for slop during installation, unlike a factory 4 spd,.....driveline angle is paramont to proper fit and vibration free running, the Keisler B body tranny mount set up, puts the engine driveline well within original specs, but the shafts new length, and tailshaft length, location alter the driveline phasing, to many variables dictate what angles/ or rear axle wedge shims might be needed, based on the type of springs your running, exsisting pinion angle, as each car varys somewhat, so the need for a inclination meter is paramont, and if unaware of needed driveline angles, the Keisler supplied instructions can guide you in determining what's required, based on your readings after installation, plus Keislers employees are well versed in their product, Richard, Gene, Jeff, know their stuff,....plus many knowledgeable Keisler customers on MOparts


IMHO, the Keisler TKO 5, is the best mod you can perform to your car, not only from a performance stand point, but fuel economy wise also, plus pure enjoyment of driving,.....it's no fun with 3:90-4:50 gearing on the highway,...street, Yeah!

Doug, my Tona' is 440/6 equipped, 450 dynoed HP, dana 60 with 4:10's running 275/60/15,....running the TKO .64 OD "knocks" my final ratio down to 2:60 approx, that allows me 145-150 MPH at 5800 RPM, or a leasurely 80+ MPH at about 2-2200 RPM, or on long highway runs, or HotRod Power Tours state to state, I avg up to 22 MPG cruising between 70-90 MPH,....however on the street I can suck down to 10 MPG if the foot's in it!,.....and on the street the TKO behaves just like a factory 4 spd, if not better!

Of all the cars I equipped for myself, or customers, I've never had an issuse with any of Keislers products, or their installs,....the only failure I had to date with Keisler products in the last 7 years was the hyd throwout bearing in my Tona',...but I must say, I beat the living crap out of the car on a regular basis, it's been on quite a few tracks around the country, been in numerous HotRod Power Tours, and tens of thousands of miles, year after year, and it's no trailer Queen, it gets driven to any event anywhere in the country

Mike



Doug, I know your concern, among many was the appearance of the shifter in the car, it's location, function, etc.....so here's a few pics, factory console, in the factory location, factory boot, using a Keisler repro TKO pistol grip console shifter

Neutral positon

1st gear location, pretty much the same for 3rd as the pattern is way tighter than a factory 4spd

2nd gear, pretty much the same position for 4th as well

5th OD

Reverse

Here's a shot of the Hyd, pedal pushrod going to the hyd. master, thru the factory 4spd rod hole



I recently updated to the Keisler supplied Wilwood master when I changed out the throwout bearing, as the older units were a bear to bleed, and the Wilwood is a much more user friendly peice, and more rugged construction

Mike:
As always, thanks for the positive, honest comments.

The only thing I question with regard to your response is the part where you said you had to split the tunnel, about 18" long up to the firewall?
If the car is an automatic, then yes, you have to cut as I pointed out. If the car already has a factory 4 speed hump, there is no cutting, other than to move the shifter over to the centerline.

Did you make the extra cut for added assurance?

The machining we do nowadays is alot different from what we did in the past. Our machining has even changed a few times since I've been (started January 2005)here.




Richard
Tech Support