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Superbird Nose Cones
#381582
07/20/09 08:26 PM
07/20/09 08:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,655
western PA
mopar4ya
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western PA
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Would anyone be able to school me on an original nose cone vs the steal repo ones that are being offered today. If you have the 2 side by side, can you pick the repo from the original? And if so. how. Thanks Dan. 
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: mopar4ya]
#381583
07/20/09 10:43 PM
07/20/09 10:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,171
Mass
DAYCLONA
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Well if you were comparing an original to say a Gene Gregory or Jack McGaughey steel replicas, the nicely finished, well put together, ones would be the repros,....an original is rather "crude", generally they are very sloppy were the rubber bump strip covers the top skin roll over, and the center section, and corners are joined, the seam work is also rather hap hazzard around the top skin roll over,.....Gregorys noses are die struck, Jack McG's are hand formed/english wheeled/ hand corked very much like how the originals were formed on Kirksite forms, Jack has a "modern" version "ureathane compound" form, to "form" his repro pcs on
Gregorys/McGaugheys cones are works of art compared to originals/NOS,.......if you think your looking at an NOS, be wary,......as NOS in wingcar parts often leaves a lot to be desired, because a lot of the parts were hand formed, or farmed out to vendors in non automotive businesses to defray the parts cost to build these cars, the parts often deligated to NOS stature were rejects,.....I've seen a lot of NOS wingcar parts over the years that were basically useless, or need a little to major work to be usable,.....nosecones included
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#381584
07/20/09 11:40 PM
07/20/09 11:40 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,484
Minneapolis, MN
hemi70se
top fuel
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top fuel
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Posts: 2,484
Minneapolis, MN
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Well I just sold my NOS nosecone and I would have to disagree with you about the factory ones being sloppy. Mine still had very nicely done lead work and the spot welded area under the bumper strip looked very nice also. I also wonder what these repro guys used for a template. Did they take measurements off an NOS cone? I doubt it, likely got measurements off one 30 year old cone thats been bumped a few times. I'll take a real cone that needs a little work before I'd take a repro. 
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#381587
07/21/09 10:54 AM
07/21/09 10:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,030
Wisconsin
Aero426
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Quote:
Well NOS,.......if you think your looking at an NOS, be wary,......as NOS in wingcar parts often leaves a lot to be desired, because a lot of the parts were hand formed, or farmed out to vendors in non automotive businesses to defray the parts cost to build these cars, the parts often deligated to NOS stature were rejects,.....I've seen a lot of NOS wingcar parts over the years that were basically useless, or need a little to major work to be usable,.....nosecones included
Mike, we have had six NOS noses pass through our hands over the years. They came from the back door at Creative. Of them, I have one left and for full disclosure, it's for sale. I have never had ANYONE complain about fit or finish on a nose they bought. I would have to challenge you on your statement that NOS wing car parts were "rejects".
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: Aero426]
#381590
07/21/09 02:30 PM
07/21/09 02:30 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,595
TX , NJ , FL
WINGCARS_6970
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TX , NJ , FL
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This was for sale sometime back as a NOS nose cone And I cant say with 100% certainity but I thought it was someone I knew with a daytona or superbird N.O.S nose that there was something you had transfer from the old nose to the new one.As it was a replacement part 
1969 Daytona 440 L9B410772
1970 Coronet 500 383 Presently owned
1970 Superbird 440 U 166242
1970 Superbird 440 U 174597
1970 Superbird 440-6 V 179697
1970 Coronet RT 440 U 224126
1968 Road Runner 426 J 134509
1970 Daytona Replica 318 G 178701
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: hemi70se]
#381591
07/21/09 03:31 PM
07/21/09 03:31 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,171
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
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Quote:
Well I just sold my NOS nosecone and I would have to disagree with you about the factory ones being sloppy. Mine still had very nicely done lead work and the spot welded area under the bumper strip looked very nice also.
I also wonder what these repro guys used for a template. Did they take measurements off an NOS cone? I doubt it, likely got measurements off one 30 year old cone thats been bumped a few times.
I'll take a real cone that needs a little work before I'd take a repro.
Yes some NOS cones can be assembled very nicely,.....I recall 2 examples, amonst others, that I 've seen over the years that were nicely done, both for customers who had purschased them for their restorations,....NOS cone #1 looked beautiful,.....only problem was the front grille opening, should have measures 24" +/- 1/8" X 8 1/2" +/- 1/16,....it measured 23 5/8" wide X 8" high,....a factory grille would NEVER fit,....I had to customize one of my repro steel SB grilles to fit,........nosecone #2 was purchased from a California parts dealer, nice NOS cone, which when fitted to the car was 1 1/2" too narrow in witdh, it had to be cut and widened at the upswept outer edges at the nose to fender/hood lines to fit, and I've experienced that with a Daytona NOS cone as well,....along with a host of other NOS wingcar part maladies that customers send me
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: Aero426]
#381592
07/21/09 04:12 PM
07/21/09 04:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,171
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
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Posts: 18,171
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Mike, we have had six NOS noses pass through our hands over the years. They came from the back door at Creative. Of them, I have one left and for full disclosure, it's for sale. I have never had ANYONE complain about fit or finish on a nose they bought. I would have to challenge you on your statement that NOS wing car parts were "rejects".
Doug, I'm not saying EVERY NOS wingcar part is reject,.......if someone thinks that NOS means perfect, they're wrong, some "NOS" peices were line rejects, simple fact being they woundn't/didn't fit without required rework, which wasn't a viable decision,....so the peice(s) go into the Dealer supply system, the dealer has the time to fit the part, or transfer exsisting pcs onto the "rejected" NOS unit,....whereas the assy line didn't have the time for such retrofit......Doug you may have had 6 cones go thru your "hands" over the years, but how many were actually used?,or just stored away, just incase something happened, how many have been continusouly traded/sold amongst collectors of wingcar/NOS stuff over the decades?........In fact Doug, the NOS cone with the reduced grille size opening that I mentioned in my above post, was purchased by the owner thru one of the SB clubs many years ago, whether it was yours or Georges site, I don't recall those details, just that he mentioned he bought it thru one of the SB clubs offerings,.....I don't follow the hoopla of car numbers, or there history, but this customers car was purchased in NJ, white 440/6 auto car, smashed in the nose, purchased and transported to California where it has sat for many years, now finially undergoing restoration,
I was just recently sent a pair of NOS light buckets, and NOS piviots from a customer to "fix",.... the light buckets were really "nice", one bucket end that was welded on was done with the bucket severly twisted, no amount of untwisting was going to help it out, plus the end plate was spotted on clocked out of alignment, the drivers bucket had a passenger end plate welded on to it, so the cams recieving studs were inboard,...the owner transfered the studs to the ouside, painted it all nice and everything, then found out that the recessed area of the plate needed to be outboard, not inboard,for the piviot to clear with the outer door attached, so a correct repro outboard driver's plate had to be fabricated to replace the "NOS" reject,....the piviots were NOS, they were only the face plates?, they were missing the arms, and the center piviot arms as well, I had to repro several parts to complete/correct the NOS parts,( I don't recall, or have seen any part numbers that allowed you to purchase piviot arms seperately?, or face plates seperately?, if a wingcar busted up so bad, it needed piviot faceplates, you think the arms would survive?  why would a "NOS" peice be built like that, missing key pcs?   )....these owners where under the impression most people are regarding NOS,...that it better or perfect, it ain't!......I seen a lot of parts, (wingcar) that people send me over the years, plus decades back, when I was tooling for repro wingcar parts, I made a few mistakes tooling off NOS parts that I borrowed/purchased,.....I found that seasoned, on the car parts were the best canidates to repro from,....and not just one canidate, you needed to compare as many examples as you could, as they varied car to car,........generally when I have a wingcar customer call me to assemble either their parts or car, and they boost about their extensive collection of NOS part they have accumulated for their restoration, I generally cringe at the thought of NOS wingar parts, only because I have to de-flate the owners illusion of how great the parts aren't, and what additional work is required to correct/complete them,.....don't get me wrong, NOS parts are more enjoyable than busted up/rusted originals that people send me, wanting a miracle,.....but with wingcar NOS parts, I find it a 50/50 gamble that they will fit out of the "box"
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: hemi70se]
#381593
07/21/09 04:48 PM
07/21/09 04:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,171
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
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I also wonder what these repro guys used for a template. Did they take measurements off an NOS cone? I doubt it, likely got measurements off one 30 year old cone thats been bumped a few times. I'll take a real cone that needs a little work before I'd take a repro.
Dirk,......I can speak for myself and Jack McGaughey, after speaking,working with, and utilizing each others parts in our respective customers restorations, and comparing "notes" if you will,.....restoring one or two wingcars may make a person qualified to answer assembly questions, but reproducing wingcar parts is a completely different endeavor, those sussesful at it, are so, because they've taken the time to compare NOS, and original parts, many of them, many times over,.....wingcar parts are in a "leaque" all their own because of the nature they were fabricated in,....Jack McGaughey, like myself has found that inorder to produce a viable part that will fit, you need to average from as many samples of original/NOS pcs as you can, regardless of the peice being reproed, you them tool a peice that "falls" within the min and max, of what has been recorded deminsion wise,....to apease the customers who purchase a part expecting it to fit, or fit with minimal adjustment(s),.....granted when a customers car is on-site undergoing restoration, parts can be "surgicaly" tuned/fabricated to fit precisely,.........The majority of the original wingcar parts were either handmade, or hand tweaked/assembled after stamping/forming/etc,.....so human error, and interpetation leaves each and every peice open to a subtle, or radical change in shape/deminsion,.......wingcar parts weren't as "cookie cutter" as standard Chrysler/Vendor assembly line parts/assys were
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: Aero426]
#381594
07/21/09 05:22 PM
07/21/09 05:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,171
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
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I would have to challenge you on your statement that NOS wing car parts were "rejects".
Doug, I could write a book, (looks like I'm doing that on this post  ),....I've dealt with a lot of customers, bodyshops, restoration shops over the last 2 decades, either selling them repro parts, repairing original parts, or NOS parts, or correcting other venders repro parts, assembling them, retrofiting them, etc, the list goes on,....but usually the NOS "reject" parts stand out in your memories,......last year I had a body shop in Virginia call me wanting a grille screen and attaching hardware for a NOS grille frame they had for a customers daytona, I sent the stuff, now they wanted to know how to install it,....after a few pics, it was obvious the "NOS" grille frame lacked the welded on top hidden studs, and no counterpunched holes on the bottom for the scews,....so they ended up sending me the "rejected NOS" frame for "adjustment",.........
I think I going to start documenting a photo journal dedicated to "Reject NOS wingcar" stuff,....I'll start with one of my 1969 NOS Daytona fenders, passenger side I have, that has a stamped depression for a 70 marker light, but was never cut out 
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#381595
07/21/09 05:41 PM
07/21/09 05:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,655
western PA
mopar4ya
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Guys, thanks for the great information. As some of you know I have had 3 Birds here for close to 25 years all waiting for a restoration. I have been collecting parts for years and up in the air on nose cones. I have a total of 6 cones, ranging from junk to less than fair. If I take all 6 I can probably piece together 2 cones. I would like to have 1 cone that is nice. Trying to decide on buying a original that needs a little work, or buying a repo. All the info is helpful. Thanks !! Dan
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#381596
07/21/09 05:47 PM
07/21/09 05:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,655
western PA
mopar4ya
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Quote:
I would have to challenge you on your statement that NOS wing car parts were "rejects".
Doug, I could write a book, (looks like I'm doing that on this post ),....I've dealt with a lot of customers, bodyshops, restoration shops over the last 2 decades, either selling them repro parts, repairing original parts, or NOS parts, or correcting other venders repro parts, assembling them, retrofiting them, etc, the list goes on,....but usually the NOS "reject" parts stand out in your memories,......last year I had a body shop in Virginia call me wanting a grille screen and attaching hardware for a NOS grille frame they had for a customers daytona, I sent the stuff, now they wanted to know how to install it,....after a few pics, it was obvious the "NOS" grille frame lacked the welded on top hidden studs, and no counterpunched holes on the bottom for the scews,....so they ended up sending me the "rejected NOS" frame for "adjustment",.........
I think I going to start documenting a photo journal dedicated to "Reject NOS wingcar" stuff,....I'll start with one of my 1969 NOS Daytona fenders, passenger side I have, that has a stamped depression for a 70 marker light, but was never cut out
LOL, I have a NOS Daytona fender with the fender scoop hole in the wrong location.
Dan
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#381597
07/21/09 07:04 PM
07/21/09 07:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,030
Wisconsin
Aero426
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Quote:
I think I going to start documenting a photo journal dedicated to "Reject NOS wingcar" stuff,....I'll start with one of my 1969 NOS Daytona fenders, passenger side I have, that has a stamped depression for a 70 marker light, but was never cut out
That fender is very likely a race part. I've seen a Daytona nose with stamped outlines for the headlights that remained unopened. That nose came direct from Don White's shop so it's pretty clear why it was that way. I would hesitate to label that nose as a reject. It just is what it is and was not intended for a street car.
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: mopar4ya]
#381598
07/21/09 07:10 PM
07/21/09 07:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,624
Fort Worth, Texas
xs29j8
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When I talked to Gean Gregory at Monster Mopar last year, he said that there were differences in the recessed flange that mounts the grille frame... I do not recall what the differences were...  Anyone know what they are? XS
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: Aero426]
#381599
07/21/09 07:18 PM
07/21/09 07:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,030
Wisconsin
Aero426
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Quote:
In fact Doug, the NOS cone with the reduced grille size opening that I mentioned in my above post, was purchased by the owner thru one of the SB clubs many years ago, whether it was yours or Georges site, I don't recall those details, just that he mentioned he bought it thru one of the SB clubs offerings,
Please note that the NOS grille frame sits in the NOS nose opening like it is supposed to.
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: mopar4ya]
#381600
07/21/09 07:24 PM
07/21/09 07:24 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,171
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I think I going to start documenting a photo journal dedicated to "Reject NOS wingcar" stuff,....I'll start with one of my 1969 NOS Daytona fenders, passenger side I have, that has a stamped depression for a 70 marker light, but was never cut out
LOL, I have a NOS Daytona fender with the fender scoop hole in the wrong location.
Dan
Dan, my NOS passenger 1969 Daytona fender, has a dished depression where they struck for a 1970 side marker, but never cut it open for the light to be inserted,.......I'm only guessing, but I would assume the fender was late in the Daytona assy timeline, but early for 1970 Charger production, maybe a prefit test peice for 70 Charger production, but got converted to Daytona conversion, never had the top hole cut, no radio antenee hole either, and no 70 Charger headlite frame spotted to it either, plus is missing a few fender mounting slots, never punched out.....It got rejected either from Creative or Chrysler for use, but got put into the Dealer parts network, ......I "bought" the fender from a bodyshop that was repairing a crash damaged restored 69 Charger 500, they purchased the fender from a Dodge dealership out west, via the internet that told them they had a NOS fender for a 69 Charger aero car .....a friend of a friend, asked me to look at it, and help the body guy out, as he was told by the cars owner, that the 500's fenders were special, and converted by the factory, and what he had,he said no way he could make work! ......so after I saw the fender, I knew what it was for, told him he had the wrong fender, the customer was charged/paid $1000 for the NOS fender! (1996 price) so I quietly traded the body man a used 69 Charger fender to repair the car, so he wouldn't be in deep do-do with the customer, as the NOS purchjase was final,.......so another lesson, you never know what goes on in the bodyshop, if your not informed!
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Re: Superbird Nose Cones
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#381601
07/21/09 08:16 PM
07/21/09 08:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,655
western PA
mopar4ya
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Something else I have noticed over the years. Why are some NOS cones gray and others red in primer Were there different venders making these, or just used what ever primer was on sale that week? Thanks Dan
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On my Superbird you can see what appears to be spot welds on the sides that start at the top of the nose and move down to the bottom. If you look at one side versus the other where the sides transition into the front of the nose, the contours of the two sides don't match.
