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Re: engine plans [Re: ric3xrt] #3280985
01/06/25 03:21 PM
01/06/25 03:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,287
Canada
WO23Coronet Offline
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WO23Coronet  Offline
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Canada
Originally Posted by ric3xrt
Back in 2020 like every one else I had a lot of spare time on my hands, built four different "426" combos and the advantage of owning my own 902Dyno I kept myself busy. these were all built and dyno'd in April.
1) 5.7 block, 4.00X4.25(427.257) 12.3 to 1 , HP610@6200TQ600@4800
2) 6.1 block, 4.08X4.08(426.738) 12.1 to 1 HP645@6800TQ585@5400
3) 6.1 block, 4.09X4.05(425.679) 12.2 to 1 HP640@6900TQ580@5400
4) 6.1 block ,4.165X3.9(425.084) 12.3 to 1 HP660@7000TQ570@5600(w/Darton MID sleeves)
All 4 used the same heads/cam/Intake manifold Holley 950 mech secondary carb, after each dyno session, the top end was removed and used on the next short block ,cam removed and re-degreed in each different short block.
heads, were Apache, port matched to a Prefix single plane intake, Manley stainless stock size valves, PSI 1516 spring, new valve job, spring ht and loads were all matched
Cam was .620/.640 250/260 110LSA.

All Results are an average of 10 pulls. #1 had the best BSFC ,and made peak TQ with just 18^ of timing.

I've a done a few 4.125X4.00(427.64) BGE block builds, last one was back in Sep of this year , out of the box AFR 224CC Blackhawk heads, Comp Cams 112-337-11 .635/.635 229/241@.50 117 LSA , made 660@6500 585@5000
Holley Hi-Ram with a 105mmTB its in a 2013 Challenger M6 car stock PCM(with tune)






I see LSA's all over the place for the Gen3's. The SBE cams seem to use a wider LSA for P to V clearance. What do these engines like? I know the more efficient the heads are the less they need to rely on a tight LSA and the pulling of the exhaust on overlap for cylinder filling. In two of your examples,, one uses a 110 LSA, while another uses 117, with similar hp outputs

Re: engine plans [Re: WO23Coronet] #3281011
01/06/25 06:19 PM
01/06/25 06:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,532
Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
I Live Here
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Kalispell Mt.
Originally Posted by WO23Coronet
Originally Posted by ric3xrt
Back in 2020 like every one else I had a lot of spare time on my hands, built four different "426" combos and the advantage of owning my own 902Dyno I kept myself busy. these were all built and dyno'd in April.
1) 5.7 block, 4.00X4.25(427.257) 12.3 to 1 , HP610@6200TQ600@4800
2) 6.1 block, 4.08X4.08(426.738) 12.1 to 1 HP645@6800TQ585@5400
3) 6.1 block, 4.09X4.05(425.679) 12.2 to 1 HP640@6900TQ580@5400
4) 6.1 block ,4.165X3.9(425.084) 12.3 to 1 HP660@7000TQ570@5600(w/Darton MID sleeves)
All 4 used the same heads/cam/Intake manifold Holley 950 mech secondary carb, after each dyno session, the top end was removed and used on the next short block ,cam removed and re-degreed in each different short block.
heads, were Apache, port matched to a Prefix single plane intake, Manley stainless stock size valves, PSI 1516 spring, new valve job, spring ht and loads were all matched
Cam was .620/.640 250/260 110LSA.

All Results are an average of 10 pulls. #1 had the best BSFC ,and made peak TQ with just 18^ of timing.

I've a done a few 4.125X4.00(427.64) BGE block builds, last one was back in Sep of this year , out of the box AFR 224CC Blackhawk heads, Comp Cams 112-337-11 .635/.635 229/241@.50 117 LSA , made 660@6500 585@5000
Holley Hi-Ram with a 105mmTB its in a 2013 Challenger M6 car stock PCM(with tune)


The factory valves in the BGE, Apache and hellcat heads are very close to the bore at low lift on a 5.7 block and definitely reduce flow down low. They also cause a lot of turbulance and are probably why the TQ is higher number and lower RPM in that combo.









Why did the 5.7 based "426" make so much less hp? due to the smaller bore?


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: engine plans [Re: cha1lenger] #3281091
01/07/25 09:14 AM
01/07/25 09:14 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 48
maryland
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mhead Offline
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mhead  Offline
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Posts: 48
maryland
I have the same questions about the gen3 as the op.

I'm a bracket racer racing small blocks for a long time 30 plus years.My son and I both run two bracket style points programs at our local track.I have the same questions.
I'm only interested in na builds.

Why doesn't anyone make higher lift cams with a head that flows this much?Are the valves too short to get higher lifts?

I would think with the head flow these engines should make more na power.

Re: engine plans [Re: mhead] #3281155
01/07/25 12:59 PM
01/07/25 12:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,145
MD
RTSE4ME Offline
top fuel
RTSE4ME  Offline
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Posts: 2,145
MD
With oem lifter .650 is the highest you can go on lift.
ric3xrt did a good & informative video on rocker motion.
Jesel makes nice lifters and rockers for an all out n/a build.

Re: engine plans [Re: mhead] #3281212
01/07/25 04:35 PM
01/07/25 04:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,287
Canada
WO23Coronet Offline
master
WO23Coronet  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,287
Canada
Rockers get funky when you approach .650" of lift. As said, you can get higher capability rockers but it's pricey

Re: engine plans [Re: WO23Coronet] #3281261
01/07/25 07:17 PM
01/07/25 07:17 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 12
Michigan
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cha1lenger Offline OP
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cha1lenger  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2020
Posts: 12
Michigan
Wow I get back from vacation and see a bunch of amazing replies to this!

I plan to be running methanol fuel, some people had asked that. I plan to run higher compression like 11 or 12:1. Nothing too crazy but should still be very mild with alcohol.

Cams have come up several times. I am most familiar with small block Mopar. They very routinely have cams with LSA 107, 108 in a higher performance application. For gen 3, there is almost none below 112. I am wondering why that is, why they still sound good and rev with what would be a truck cam in a small block from a LSA perspective. I know theres a ton to the cam equation and I am not a cam guru by any shape or form.

I know the beauty of gen 3 hemis (apart from the incredible BGE block) is how great the heads are stock. My issue is by the time I buy cores for $1200-1500, have them gone thru, replace valves and springs, its getting close to what aftermarket ones run. for $3500 Blackbird is claiming to have turn key heads ready to go that I would expect are stronger and better than the already incredible 6.4 heads. A lot to consider, for sure!!! There isn't a ton of literature out on this engine, compared to older Mopar and certainly GM especially LS which is a contemporary. I do predict gen 3 hemi will take off and the aftermarket support is ratcheting up exponentially. I appreciate all the wisdom shared thus far!

Last edited by cha1lenger; 01/07/25 07:19 PM.
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