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Re: 2012 ram MDS delete thoughts on this kit [Re: Tay] #3271669
11/21/24 12:14 PM
11/21/24 12:14 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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Originally Posted by Tay
Originally Posted by HotRodDave
Originally Posted by Tay
Delete MDS , install plugs Win Win. as for Pros/Cons , honestly I think it's all subjective , we've had customers say gas mileage was better when towing, ...went to crap when towing, I think some of it has to do with driver habits
for me, personally , I do a lot of short hop driving, 3 miles here, 10 miles there 90% suburbs , mileage went up by 2 , lost 2 on high way , my current daily is a 09 RCSB 4x2 , irony is I got it real cheap because it had a lifter issue

The Lifter issue is a combination of the VVT function, keep in mind certain scenarios the cam is being pulled away from the lifter or snapping back to lock position.
FCA had Comp cams and a private company run a test on a spintron to figure out the issue.



I would love to see any evidence to back that claim up, i seriously doubt it has anything to do with VVT, it is just advancing and retarding it, same thing as increasing or decreasing RPM.


Common sense alone should tell you VVT has something to do with it,....G3 never had a MDS lifter issue before VVT, but after VVT it does,

One of the things discovered during the spintron testing was that when the VVT SNAPS the cam back to lock position there is roughly 3x load on the Camshaft lobe. When retarding the cam they found that in certain situations the plunger in the lifter expands to the point where the contact pressure on the lobe decreases by 50-60% then valve spring pressure takes up that "slack" which creates a bounce

you don't need a masters in Automotive Engineering from University of Wisconsin and 6 years experience working for Stellantis to be able to grasp the root cause.




If you ever opened up a phaser and studied how it works in relation to the complete oil system all together you would see that there is a really big volume of oil in those chambers and you would know that it can only be vented so fast because of basically an orifice allowing it to empty at a certain speed, it can not "snap" back, it takes time for that oil to be vented from the phaser. The FACT is the needle bearing size on the lifter was significantly reduced in 2009 and so a smaller particle of anything can stop one from rolling just like how a penny on the floor in the grocery store can stop your buggy wheel from rolling and it will get a flat spot on the wheel that keeps getting worse as it stops intermittently and skids on the flat spot even more but a train wheel will just keep rolling over one like it wasn't even there. That's why the lifters fail and throwing more oil at it will not do anything to stop it.

I would love to see someone with actual spintron data backing up your claim. Maybe you worked there and couldn't figure this out and that would explain why they are still wiping lobes 15 years after the problem surfaced, if it was snapping back and causing this problem it would be super easy to solve with a computer software update to slow it down even more... Engineers really do some stupid stuff the ordinary everyday man can see is a huge problem but the engineer with his "special education" is clueless.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: 2012 ram MDS delete thoughts on this kit [Re: gtx6970] #3271670
11/21/24 12:19 PM
11/21/24 12:19 PM
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Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline
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I don't see how VVT could cause lifter problems. All it does is move the camshaft a few degrees. It was likely a supplier or design change on the actual lifters that caused the issues.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: 2012 ram MDS delete thoughts on this kit [Re: HotRodDave] #3271880
11/22/24 03:32 PM
11/22/24 03:32 PM
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Quakertown PA
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Tay Offline
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all I know is what we found during the sprintron tests.

Re: 2012 ram MDS delete thoughts on this kit [Re: Tay] #3279497
01/01/25 01:12 AM
01/01/25 01:12 AM
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52savoy Offline
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I can only go with what I've seen and that is starting in 2009 and up to 2011 or 2012 or whatever 5.7 engines are being destroyed because of valve train failures (mainly lifters) at a higher rate than the early models(03-08).
From what I recall the maintenance on cam and lifters is something like 40 or 50,000 mile replacement.

My 2007 Ram had 198,000 when I bought it and it was having misfiring/lifter clatter so within a couple months of buying I put a DIABLO tuner on it and disabled the mds. I've had the truck 8 years now and it runs really good considering it's pushing 250,000 miles.


Project 2025, America's Mein Kampf coming Jan.2025
Re: 2012 ram MDS delete thoughts on this kit [Re: Bad340fish] #3279652
01/01/25 12:40 PM
01/01/25 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Bad340fish
I don't see how VVT could cause lifter problems. All it does is move the camshaft a few degrees. It was likely a supplier or design change on the actual lifters that caused the issues.


the way I understand it,,, is the needle bearing on the roller is smaller than the superseded versions. Combined with lower oil pressure as these engines wear mixed in with less splash lubrication due to how the how the block is designed are all contributing factors , combined with lots of idle time

I put a scat pack / hellcat oil pump in mine while it was down for good measure.

I have 32-35 psi at 190ish degree hot idle and 55-60 psi driving down the road ( approx 2000 rpm range )

sorry, dont remember what pressures were before mine went south

Mine is all back together and runs like it did. I have serious doubts I';; put another 100k in my lifetime


Enjoy life today, It has an expiration date
Re: 2012 ram MDS delete thoughts on this kit [Re: gtx6970] #3279822
01/01/25 08:39 PM
01/01/25 08:39 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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Originally Posted by gtx6970
Originally Posted by Bad340fish
I don't see how VVT could cause lifter problems. All it does is move the camshaft a few degrees. It was likely a supplier or design change on the actual lifters that caused the issues.


the way I understand it,,, is the needle bearing on the roller is smaller than the superseded versions. Combined with lower oil pressure as these engines wear mixed in with less splash lubrication due to how the how the block is designed are all contributing factors , combined with lots of idle time

I put a scat pack / hellcat oil pump in mine while it was down for good measure.

I have 32-35 psi at 190ish degree hot idle and 55-60 psi driving down the road ( approx 2000 rpm range )

sorry, dont remember what pressures were before mine went south

Mine is all back together and runs like it did. I have serious doubts I';; put another 100k in my lifetime


The pump was made a higher volume in 2009... the same year the problem cropped up. The problem is the smaller needle bearing not the oil volume. There is the same area for lube to splash around in the 09+ block as there was before, combined with the higher pump volume there is MORE splash lube yet that is when the problem started and throwing even more oil around is not going to do anything. My 6.4 runs about that same pressure as yours but with a 5.7 pump even though it also has piston oil squirters to feed. Everyone buying high volume oil pumps is not accomplishing anything at all.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: 2012 ram MDS delete thoughts on this kit [Re: HotRodDave] #3279823
01/01/25 08:46 PM
01/01/25 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by HotRodDave


The pump was made a higher volume in 2009... Everyone buying high volume oil pumps is not accomplishing anything at all.


This may be very true, But I wasn't putting mine back together without a new oil pump. So it sure couldn't hurt.


Enjoy life today, It has an expiration date
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