Re: Tube flow
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3256527
09/08/24 12:33 AM
09/08/24 12:33 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,286 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
|
Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,286
Fulton County, PA
|
Well, π × radius2. So 1x1= 1 x 3.1416 = 3.1416
and 2 x 2 = 4
So with out taking time to figure the loss of the radiused corners, I'd say, with all else being equal, the area of the rectangle would be around 25% more.
The rectangle.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3256559
09/08/24 08:24 AM
09/08/24 08:24 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,081 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,081
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
|
Well, π × radius2. So 1x1= 1 x 3.1416 = 3.1416
and 2 x 2 = 4
So with out taking time to figure the loss of the radiused corners, I'd say, with all else being equal, the area of the rectangle would be around 25% more.
The rectangle. There may be a slight loss of flow due to the longer walls of square tube, but not as much as the difference in square area? Take note of the choice of shapes car manufacturers use for intake runners. Square would be more compact, but i see a lot of round intake manifold ports.
8.582, 160.18 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3256592
09/08/24 12:16 PM
09/08/24 12:16 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,705 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,705
Bend,OR USA
|
intake or exhaust side? Vacuum or pressure?
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: gregsdart]
#3256595
09/08/24 12:22 PM
09/08/24 12:22 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,286 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
|
Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,286
Fulton County, PA
|
Well, π × radius2. So 1x1= 1 x 3.1416 = 3.1416
and 2 x 2 = 4
So with out taking time to figure the loss of the radiused corners, I'd say, with all else being equal, the area of the rectangle would be around 25% more.
The rectangle. There may be a slight loss of flow due to the longer walls of square tube, but not as much as the difference in square area? Take note of the choice of shapes car manufacturers use for intake runners. Square would be more compact, but i see a lot of round intake manifold ports. All true. Boundary layer separation is real. He didn't say what he was flowing, how long the tube is, or if there are any bends. I just assumed two pieces of tube, smooth surface, maybe 6" long and flowing something like fuel or water, and figured the area. If air, the same pressure pushing it. Figure the exact percentage including the corner radius should get you closer.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3256618
09/08/24 02:17 PM
09/08/24 02:17 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,630 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,630
fredericksburg,va
|
Well, π × radius2. So 1x1= 1 x 3.1416 = 3.1416
and 2 x 2 = 4
So with out taking time to figure the loss of the radiused corners, I'd say, with all else being equal, the area of the rectangle would be around 25% more.
The rectangle. There may be a slight loss of flow due to the longer walls of square tube, but not as much as the difference in square area? Take note of the choice of shapes car manufacturers use for intake runners. Square would be more compact, but i see a lot of round intake manifold ports. All true. Boundary layer separation is real. He didn't say what he was flowing, how long the tube is, or if there are any bends. I just assumed two pieces of tube, smooth surface, maybe 6" long and flowing something like fuel or water, and figured the area. If air, the same pressure pushing it. Figure the exact percentage including the corner radius should get you closer. Correct on that
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3256627
09/08/24 03:16 PM
09/08/24 03:16 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,271 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
|
"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,271
PA.
|
When I port the exhaust on heads I care more about airspeed (fps) than I do cfm. It’s interesting testing an exhaust port with a six inch piece of 2 inch pipe on the outlet.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: gregsdart]
#3256699
09/08/24 11:52 PM
09/08/24 11:52 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,805 Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,805
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
|
There is a reason intake manifold runners aren't round.
Kevin ok, fill us in I recall reading that air flow through a round pipe will form a vortex that restricts flow. Perhaps that is the issue here. Since headers and exhaust pipes are normally round maybe this only applies to vacuum induced flow and not pressure, if so then round intake ports may work fine with boost but not too well when normally aspirated. I am not a fluid dynamics expert, just letting my mind wander late at night.
Last edited by GomangoCuda; 09/09/24 12:05 AM.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#3256715
09/09/24 05:46 AM
09/09/24 05:46 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,981 A shed in England
Tig
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,981
A shed in England
|
There is a reason intake manifold runners aren't round.
Kevin ok, fill us in I recall reading that air flow through a round pipe will form a vortex that restricts flow. Perhaps that is the issue here. Since headers and exhaust pipes are normally round maybe this only applies to vacuum induced flow and not pressure, if so then round intake ports may work fine with boost but not too well when normally aspirated. I am not a fluid dynamics expert, just letting my mind wander late at night. I'm no expert either but it was explained to me that it's the opposite, a round tube flows better than square or rectangular. A quick google search seems to hold this up, in general at least.
'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials. 9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge. RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: Tig]
#3256742
09/09/24 10:33 AM
09/09/24 10:33 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,630 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,630
fredericksburg,va
|
Adding some, Fords tunnel port heads-intake, Mopar W2 oval ports, Chevy heads with the tall narrow pointed top heads. Just the domestic V8 stuff not overseas stuff. Thoughts?
Last edited by cudaman1969; 09/09/24 10:33 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3256750
09/09/24 11:18 AM
09/09/24 11:18 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,805 Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,805
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
|
Adding some, Fords tunnel port heads-intake, Mopar W2 oval ports, Chevy heads with the tall narrow pointed top heads. Just the domestic V8 stuff not overseas stuff. Thoughts? Yep, not sure anybody really knows what all is going on in there. Some of the newer strange looking OEM designs may be because port injection, direct injection, turbo charging and supercharging changed everything they thought they knew about wet and dry flow and fuel separation.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#3256759
09/09/24 11:55 AM
09/09/24 11:55 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,805 Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,805
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
|
I found an article about racing turbo 6 cyl intakes (Toyota perhaps). They said that round runners would cause air flow to stall at high boost. Why then does every turbo have round tubing between the turbo and the manifold? Why doesn't the same physics apply before and after the plenum? Maybe this is just an example of what my signature says.
Last edited by GomangoCuda; 09/09/24 11:56 AM.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#3256785
09/09/24 01:16 PM
09/09/24 01:16 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,630 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,630
fredericksburg,va
|
I found an article about racing turbo 6 cyl intakes (Toyota perhaps). They said that round runners would cause air flow to stall at high boost. Why then does every turbo have round tubing between the turbo and the manifold? Why doesn't the same physics apply before and after the plenum? Maybe this is just an example of what my signature says. My thinking too, all about boundary layers imo, on a semi square tube the radius corners could break up that layer? On the S/S A cars they made the intakes and heads round to flow more, I guess. Remember the World Cup yachts incorporated a ribbed hull (like a whale belly) to make less drag in the water, they, hulls and tubes all have friction of some amount so it’s where do they want the least friction What I’m looking at, dang upside down!
Last edited by cudaman1969; 09/09/24 01:49 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: cudaman1969]
#3256947
09/10/24 10:42 AM
09/10/24 10:42 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,219 New York
polyspheric
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,219
New York
|
What will flow better a 2” tube or 2” rectangle with 3/8” radius corners
Round area for 2" tube is ΠR²: 3.1416in² Square area L²: 4in², minus the corner radiiof .141" = 3.86", or 23% greater,
Boffin Emeritus
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: polyspheric]
#3256973
09/10/24 01:18 PM
09/10/24 01:18 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,630 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,630
fredericksburg,va
|
What will flow better a 2” tube or 2” rectangle with 3/8” radius corners
Round area for 2" tube is ΠR²: 3.1416in² Square area L²: 4in², minus the corner radiiof .141" = 3.86", or 23% greater, Thanks, I thought you would show up, you’re a smart guy!
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: polyspheric]
#3256977
09/10/24 01:32 PM
09/10/24 01:32 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,981 A shed in England
Tig
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,981
A shed in England
|
Maybe the question should be: "What will flow better, a round tube with a 3.1416" cross sectional area OR a square tube with 3.1416" cross sectional area ?" I don't know if anyone has ever tested this On the other hand, I don't think I've ever seen an exhaust manifold made from square section tubing, but then again I haven't been looking
'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials. 9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge. RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
|
|
|
Re: Tube flow
[Re: Tig]
#3257051
09/10/24 08:15 PM
09/10/24 08:15 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,630 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,630
fredericksburg,va
|
Maybe the question should be: "What will flow better, a round tube with a 3.1416" cross sectional area OR a square tube with 3.1416" cross sectional area ?" I don't know if anyone has ever tested this On the other hand, I don't think I've ever seen an exhaust manifold made from square section tubing, but then again I haven't been looking Actully an intake, cross section is a tad over 2” maybe 2-1/8 x 2-1/8
Last edited by cudaman1969; 09/10/24 08:16 PM.
|
|
|
|
|