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Recommendations on upgrading home electrical service panel #3256698
09/08/24 11:46 PM
09/08/24 11:46 PM
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Macomb, MI
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vinnyd76 Offline OP
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Looking to expand/upgrade the service panel in my home. Currently installed is a 150-amp panel by Challenger. I'm told that Challenger components are prone to problems.

Looking for input on things to consider when upgrading and purchasing a new panel. I will definitely hire a licensed electrical contractor to complete installation. The current panel is pretty much maxed out.

I would like to have a minimum 20 amp circuit dedicated to the garage. I'm also considering running 220 out to the garage.

Anyone have any experience/feedback with Leviton panels? I believe the brand is fairly new within the industry.

Last edited by vinnyd76; 09/15/24 06:31 AM.
Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: vinnyd76] #3256701
09/09/24 12:00 AM
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North Dakota
6PakBee Offline
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What you are probably looking for is breaker selection, availability, and price. Around here that boils down to Square D and Siemens. Your circumstances may be different.


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Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: 6PakBee] #3256711
09/09/24 04:41 AM
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So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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200 Amp breaker (sometime listed at a 225A panel), "All in one", is the common upgrade. Those are the same size and similar cost as a 125A typically.

get one listed "solar ready" just in case of future

Typically brands we see around here:

Siemans
Eaton
Square D

400A panels are much more expensive and much larger.

Last edited by autoxcuda; 09/09/24 04:42 AM.
Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: autoxcuda] #3256716
09/09/24 05:49 AM
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ruderunner Offline
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I'd think about running a minimum 50a line to the garage and a sub panel in there.

Siemens are good and common.


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Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: ruderunner] #3256734
09/09/24 09:21 AM
09/09/24 09:21 AM
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Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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One very common mistake or misconception is that you need to upgrade the main panel to add shop power. In reality, a 100 amp main panel is plenty for most households AND a decent size shop.

What you have to look at mainly is what things you are most likely to be running all at once AND most importantly, what is "operating current" draw. For example, a particular appliance may need 20 amps to "start" but will then only require 5 amps to run. You'd probably be surprised to see how little current draw your house runs on.

Next is the space in the main panel. Are there any vacant spots. All you need is two side by side to run 220v out to your shop and 50 or 60 amps is plenty. To meet code you'll need a main breaker in the house (in the two slots in the panel) and a separate panel in the shop with a main breaker of the same amperage. From that panel you'll run breakers for your various equipment outlets. And just because you have a welder. compressor and other equipment, very few things will run at the same time.

A main panel swap can be expensive, especially when you hire an electrician to do it. Adding a sub panel is a pretty simple and inexpensive undertaking. Do some research before you throw money at this.

Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: Stanton] #3256752
09/09/24 11:20 AM
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jcc Offline
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iagree

And you regardless are always limited use and code wise as to what the power company main service/meter is rated for.
I suspect the costs here for the OP's intentions might bit higher than expected.


" All sorts of things can happen when you are open to new Ideas" Inventor of Kevlar
Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: jcc] #3256756
09/09/24 11:42 AM
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i have a 200 amp panel box in the house, and a 100 amp sub panel box in the garage.
this was installed years ago by my cousin who is a licensed electrician, and was inspected by a real [insert your favorite "adjective of choice" here] inspector that was known to be a stickler for code details.
it has lots of room to grow in both boxes, so i'm good for the rest of my days............
passed with flying colors.
beer

Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: vinnyd76] #3256769
09/09/24 12:19 PM
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Bowling Green, KY
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cudaboy Offline
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Since an electrician will be there already, I’d have an automatic transfer switch installed.

Dennis

Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: Stanton] #3256773
09/09/24 12:34 PM
09/09/24 12:34 PM
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Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
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Originally Posted by Stanton
One very common mistake or misconception is that you need to upgrade the main panel to add shop power. In reality, a 100 amp main panel is plenty for most households AND a decent size shop.

iagree

I have a 100-amp main and a 100-amp sub panel for the shop. Never lacking for power but I've thought about upgrading to get rid of the old Zinsco breakers.


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Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: cudaboy] #3256786
09/09/24 01:21 PM
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jcc Offline
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Originally Posted by cudaboy
Since an electrician will be there already, I’d have an automatic transfer switch installed.

Dennis


A manual transfer is way cheaper, far more reliable, and can't help to burn the house down when its unoccupied and it supplies power to a damaged house (like maybe a fallen tree?) an automatic transfer switch is ignorant of.


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Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: jcc] #3256796
09/09/24 02:13 PM
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South Dakota
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We up graded our old house when we went from a gas dryer to electric dryer. Older house that had a 100A panel. House had a detached garage. Upping the panel we could go either to a 150A or a 200A. I went to the 200. Knowing it was not going to be a forever home I also wanted that as a selling point there was more room in the panel. The down side was the electrician had to bring the rest of the house up to code so a lot of other things had to be changed that I wasn't originally planning on. The end it wasn't that bad. Ran us about 3100 but that was about 5 years ago. This summer I went to get a hot tub wired up in our new place. Same company but they wanted 2700 for the hot tub install. Needless to say that didn't happen.


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Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: hotairballoonpilot] #3256799
09/09/24 02:20 PM
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SomeCarGuy Offline
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You likely have 200 amps being delivered already and necked down to 150. Our utility sends that much anytime you go over 100. I upgraded to a new Square D QO panel and that cost maybe 80 bucks more than the basic home line deal.

I have no idea how people are getting by with 100 amp panels. No way I’d deal with that,,especially if I was paying for 200 amp delivery and not using it. My old house had a 125 and the lights would dim when the ac kicked. Going to 200 stopped that.

The big issue I had at that place was lack of breakers, so power was sent to all sorts of places off the same breaker. Dangerous really. Inconvenient for sure. We were able to split up a bunch of circuits by going to the big panel.

Also, any new panel install at all requires a surge breaker under 2021 NEC. So you need space for that, might as well go big when you do this.


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Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: SomeCarGuy] #3256818
09/09/24 03:20 PM
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Rio Linda, CA
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Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy

I have no idea how people are getting by with 100 amp panels.


Totally depends on the individual case. My place was built in 1961 and wired mostly with 14 gauge wire an the 120-volt circuits and I've never tripped a breaker or had any other power-related problems.


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Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: jcc] #3256833
09/09/24 04:25 PM
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North Dakota
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Originally Posted by jcc
iagree

And you regardless are always limited use and code wise as to what the power company main service/meter is rated for.
I suspect the costs here for the OP's intentions might bit higher than expected.


You have to be careful here. The NEC defines the service point as "the point where the serving electric utility conductors connect to customer-owned premises wiring". Anything prior to the service point is the responsibility of the utility and not regulated by the NEC. If the service is overhead, that service point is typically at the mast. If the service is underground, it is typically at the meter socket. But you make a valid point. When I was a temporary summer laborer on a utility line gang, 200 amp residential services were fed with #4/0 - #4/0 - #1/0 while the 100 amp services were fed with #1/0 - #1/0 - #2. Replacing a panel with a higher rated panel does not increase the ampacity of the feeders.


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Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: 6PakBee] #3256843
09/09/24 05:37 PM
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autoxcuda Offline
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Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Originally Posted by jcc
iagree

And you regardless are always limited use and code wise as to what the power company main service/meter is rated for.
I suspect the costs here for the OP's intentions might bit higher than expected.


You have to be careful here. The NEC defines the service point as "the point where the serving electric utility conductors connect to customer-owned premises wiring". Anything prior to the service point is the responsibility of the utility and not regulated by the NEC. If the service is overhead, that service point is typically at the mast. If the service is underground, it is typically at the meter socket. But you make a valid point. When I was a temporary summer laborer on a utility line gang, 200 amp residential services were fed with #4/0 - #4/0 - #1/0 while the 100 amp services were fed with #1/0 - #1/0 - #2. Replacing a panel with a higher rated panel does not increase the ampacity of the feeders.


Yes, customer is responsible for wire inside the OH mast head. And must comply with NEC minimum requirements on diameter pipe per wire size with jurisdiction of Local Authority (inspector) . But ALSO, the diameter and construction of the OH mast itself for physically integrity, follows the Utility Co's rules at minimum. That is so their OH line is safely supported and clearanced. Example: if the NEC says 2 1/2 pipe, and the Utility Co. says 2" pipe... you put in 2 1/2" pipe.

Many times there is an dollar allowance for upgraded load (adding a toaster with you new panel upgrade wink ) that would cover OH wire or UG cable only.

Local utility here is #4 aluminum triplex for overhead 200A residential panels with 100ft or less max service length (depending on conditions).

Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: autoxcuda] #3256898
09/09/24 11:18 PM
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Stanton Offline
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Quote
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy

I have no idea how people are getting by with 100 amp panels.


Totally depends on the individual case. My place was built in 1961 and wired mostly with 14 gauge wire an the 120-volt circuits and I've never tripped a breaker or had any other power-related problems.


Same here. 100a service to the house. No problems running all the usual stuff. 60a breaker in the main feeding a 60a panel in the shop. Its important to note that "when lights flicker" when something is turned on its an indicator that there are either too many items on that circuit OR the wire gauge is too small for what's being used. It is NOT an indication that your main feed is too small. A prime example is our attached garage where I have a dust collector on the same circuit as a table saw. when either is running and the other is turned on the running one momentarily slows down. The start-up current draw is pushing the limits of the circuit but once running everything is fine. Out in the shop I made sure there were enough seperate circuits that even if a bunch of things were running there would be no interuption of power.

Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: jcc] #3257180
09/11/24 12:44 PM
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Tulsa, Oklahoma
340Cuda Offline
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Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by cudaboy
Since an electrician will be there already, I’d have an automatic transfer switch installed.

Dennis


A manual transfer is way cheaper, far more reliable, and can't help to burn the house down when its unoccupied and it supplies power to a damaged house (like maybe a fallen tree?) an automatic transfer switch is ignorant of.


Adding an interlocking breaker would cost you next to nothing.

Adding a generator input would be a little more but if you every want a standby generator this would be the time to add the input.

Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: 340Cuda] #3257277
09/11/24 09:11 PM
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transfer switch of any kind are viewed at interconnections from your utility company. Therefore they often time need to be approved by the utility.

This is to protect Linemen that may be working on your lines with the power is out. If your transfer switch feeds back any electricity to the system, you could electrocute a Lineman.

Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: autoxcuda] #3257290
09/11/24 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by autoxcuda
transfer switch of any kind are viewed at interconnections from your utility company. Therefore they often time need to be approved by the utility.

This is to protect Linemen that may be working on your lines with the power is out. If your transfer switch feeds back any electricity to the system, you could electrocute a Lineman.


iagree

The issue with back feeding is mainly, everyone in the surrounding area that is suffering from a power outage expects all the downed lines , etc to be relatively safe, and here is the kicker. when your generator back feeds the lines, and when that 120v hits the first transformer in the grid,
that 120V now becomes potentially 5,000v or higher. And that is rather lethal for everyone, especially the emergency lineman working under extreme conditions to restore everyone's power.


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Re: Recommedations on upgrading home electrical service panel [Re: Stanton] #3257303
09/11/24 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Stanton
Quote
Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy

I have no idea how people are getting by with 100 amp panels.


Totally depends on the individual case. My place was built in 1961 and wired mostly with 14 gauge wire an the 120-volt circuits and I've never tripped a breaker or had any other power-related problems.


Same here. 100a service to the house. No problems running all the usual stuff. 60a breaker in the main feeding a 60a panel in the shop. Its important to note that "when lights flicker" when something is turned on its an indicator that there are either too many items on that circuit OR the wire gauge is too small for what's being used. It is NOT an indication that your main feed is too small. A prime example is our attached garage where I have a dust collector on the same circuit as a table saw. when either is running and the other is turned on the running one momentarily slows down. The start-up current draw is pushing the limits of the circuit but once running everything is fine. Out in the shop I made sure there were enough seperate circuits that even if a bunch of things were running there would be no interuption of power.


With no other changes than the new service, panel, and the new breaker, the ac stopped flicking the lights. Nothing else was on that particular circuit on the old panel. You guys do what you want, I’ll continue to set up for the max amount I’m already paying for and not worry about this kinda thing. As you said, the flicking lights were and indication of an undersized wire on the circuit, in that case it was the main feed.

What many do not know is that the power coming to you house can vary quite a bit throughout the day. I have a monitor right now on my system and the weekly report I get shows some wild swings take place. If you have marginal stuff and hit one of the big sags, you’ll know it.


I want my fair share
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