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Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: 71Demon528] #3251267
08/13/24 07:14 PM
08/13/24 07:14 PM
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A collage of whims
topside Offline
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By "wobble", do you mean the wheels go right/left/right/etc at a particular speed ?
That's fairly common on dirt Sprint Cars - ours would do that - and seems a byproduct of having lots of positive caster.
Usually when lifting throttle, and it was a transitory thing at a certain MPH
My car (in the avatar) would on rare occasions do that - same deal as the Sprinter, off-throttle, transitory & brief); it runs about 7 deg pos caster due to its Jack Arnew upper arms.
Always ran straight as a string, though, even when front would set down (always carried the fronts from the tree).

Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: topside] #3251289
08/13/24 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by topside
By "wobble", do you mean the wheels go right/left/right/etc at a particular speed ?
That's fairly common on dirt Sprint Cars - ours would do that - and seems a byproduct of having lots of positive caster.
Usually when lifting throttle, and it was a transitory thing at a certain MPH
My car (in the avatar) would on rare occasions do that - same deal as the Sprinter, off-throttle, transitory & brief); it runs about 7 deg pos caster due to its Jack Arnew upper arms.
Always ran straight as a string, though, even when front would set down (always carried the fronts from the tree).


When I say “wobble” I’m referring to when the car lands and the tire toes in then out in then out as the car is settling. I think Al was referring to bump stop as how when I landed the car steered to the left but that was also me starting to turn the steering wheel ever so slightly to the left as the car is in the air because I felt the car pushing right a little bit. Either way, Doug’s explanation of it is I believe spot on. Jack a car up and watch the camber and toe change, then let the car back down and watch it do it all in reverse. How drastic the car does it depends on how much front end travel, along with how much toe the car has to begin with, along with camber and caster. I always referred to it as the Chrysler wobble because I was taught Chryslers were very notorious for having that wobble back before my time and before guys learned how to deal with it better. Even my rack and pinion front end with upper and lower a-arms, coil overs with shock has that wobble when it lands. But it’s not as drastic as my stock front end was because I have cable limiters connected the lower control arm so it doesn’t have a boat load of travel.

Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: 71Demon528] #3251326
08/14/24 06:26 AM
08/14/24 06:26 AM
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Very nice! Good job driving on all fronts. Congrats on a new best, the car is flying.

Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: HardcoreB] #3255395
09/02/24 05:19 PM
09/02/24 05:19 PM
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Did anybody notice that there were more than a few A H shootout cars at Indy with wheel wobble coming down from a wheelstand? They use rack and pinion. So I would say that isn't the cure.
Doug

Last edited by dvw; 09/02/24 08:50 PM.
Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: 71Demon528] #3255406
09/02/24 06:04 PM
09/02/24 06:04 PM
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Not broken the stock coupler (yet) but it is on the list to be replaced. Had similar issues, massive wheel wobble on touchdown and violent shaking of the steering wheel. In real time it barely lasts a second or 2 but the slo mo vid below shows how much it does shake. There was a number of issues with the steering, mainly worn components and a cracked K member.
The 2nd vid shows the difference after a lot of parts were replaced. I don't think you can eliminate the bump steer entirely but you can minimize it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91dmTS-UvDc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4B_QewPIhc

Since the last vid we've further improved the amount of bump steer by reducing the amount of front travel. Car weighs 4023 W/D, 48.1% over the front.


'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials.
9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge.
RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: dvw] #3255415
09/02/24 06:56 PM
09/02/24 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dvw

The wobble in my opinion is different from bump steer. Even if the suspension remains at zero or near zero toe change throughout suspension travel when checked in the shop. Wobble can still occur. As the the suspension droops tha track width become narrower. When the tires return to the ground something has to give to restablish static tack width. That flexs the steering box and idler arm and mounts along with the control arm bushings. The entire linkage goes thru a shorter-standard width-shorter dimension cycle until the static track width is restablished. You will notice that the steering wheel itself seldom, if ever has feedback. I have friends with GM products with the same issue. The greater the suspension travel and the quicker it comes down, the greater the wobble.
Doug


I am not convinced track change while in motion is the real culprit here.

One aspect, if car is moving say 60mph or 66ft/sec, track changes from full extension to full compression say 1.5"?, and say it takes 1/2 sec to land, that means 1.5"/33' is the rate track change per rolling foot or .0037" total change in total track change per rolling foot, based on these assumptions.



Last edited by jcc; 09/02/24 07:33 PM.

" All sorts of things can happen when you are open to new Ideas" Inventor of Kevlar
Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: jcc] #3255420
09/02/24 07:15 PM
09/02/24 07:15 PM
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South Bend
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Friends 48 Thames with straight axle had the death wobble. A VW steering shock adapted to the steering linkage stopped it.


Bill Bussaard orange crate.JPG

July 19th should be "Drive Like Rockford Day". R.I.P. Jimmie.
Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: John Brown] #3255421
09/02/24 07:31 PM
09/02/24 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by John Brown
Friends 48 Thames with straight axle had the death wobble. A VW steering shock adapted to the steering linkage stopped it.


IE, no track change in a straight axle.


" All sorts of things can happen when you are open to new Ideas" Inventor of Kevlar
Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: dvw] #3255426
09/02/24 07:53 PM
09/02/24 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by dvw
Did anybody notice that ther ewere more than a few A H shootout cars at Indy with wheel wobble coming down from a wheelstand? They use rack and pinion. So I would say that isn't the cure.
Doug


Not all the AH cars use R&P. It just became legal over the winter I believe.


"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: dvw] #3255443
09/02/24 09:13 PM
09/02/24 09:13 PM
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Connellsville
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Originally Posted by dvw
Did anybody notice that there were more than a few A H shootout cars at Indy with wheel wobble coming down from a wheelstand? They use rack and pinion. So I would say that isn't the cure.
Doug


My car also has rack and pinion and has the wobble.

Side note, we fixed the steering shaft yesterday. It now has a Borgenson U-joint coupler. Car is ready for Norwalk now.

8D5BA924-812E-4C2A-981D-1EDBBE890C56.jpeg20F7B18F-178C-4DED-BD8B-4D6F466BF59B.jpeg
Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: topside] #3255481
09/02/24 11:15 PM
09/02/24 11:15 PM
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montana
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As Topside said, the "wobble" is a different animal than bump steer toe change. When we were doing the IMCA Mod thing years ago, the car ran 18 degrees positive castor on RF, with a few degrees less on the left. Not only did the car want to naturally pull left at corner, but when steering wheel was turned right, that amount of positive castor actually lifted RF, thereby pushing LR into the ground, giving the car great bite coming of the corner. Where as bump steer toe change can be a handful to drive when it comes down off a wheel stand, the tire wobble we created on the Mods was very stable and controllable, especially at speed. The WOO guys did the same thing with their cars. As was stated above, you can limit the toe change by limiting front end travel, or you can take the more serious approach and get all steering points level, control arms to proper length and position, etc. As Al stated, not a quick and easy process. Just my experience with this issue with Mopar front ends. Jim.


64 Dodge Coronet 440. In progress
1998. Dodge Avenger. 8.35@165. 4400 DA
1980 Plymouth Arrow 572 Hemi.
242" Mullis Dragster. 6.90@ 200mph
Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: BANDIT] #3255512
09/03/24 08:31 AM
09/03/24 08:31 AM
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South Bend
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Was about 1966 and a customer with a Volkswagon came in complaining that their steering wheel would shake so violently they couldn't steer the car. I called the local garage that worked on VW's and they said replace the steering damper. This was the first time I had heard of a steering damper so I thought they were nutz. I still thought it was just wheel/tire balance, but I called the parts store to see about a damper. They had one in stock, and it was cheap, so why not try it. The thing was only about an inch in diameter and around a foot and a half long. Installed it and guess what? No more shake!

A couple of weeks later, this Orange English Ford shows up at Osceola drag strip. It pops lettle wheelies, and about one times in three, the wheels shake when it sets down. Only way the driver can get it to stop is to slam on the brakes. Not good on a drag car. Since the owner uses the same speed shop as I do, I go over and talk to him. Tell him about the VW thing. Steering damper is cheep and light weight, so he says it's worth a try. A little fab work and next week he has it back to the strip with the damper on it. AMAZING! No more steering shake. No more need to slam on the brakes to make it quit the violent shaking. Another satisfied racer. Made a new friend.


July 19th should be "Drive Like Rockford Day". R.I.P. Jimmie.
Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: 71Demon528] #3255518
09/03/24 09:20 AM
09/03/24 09:20 AM
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Mt Morris Michigan
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Nice run and glad as is well. Just curious to what the new motor/combo is?

Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: mopar dave] #3255532
09/03/24 10:43 AM
09/03/24 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mopar dave
Nice run and glad as is well. Just curious to what the new motor/combo is?


Thanks Dave.

572 Hemi built by close friend and mentor Tim Bowman at Bowman Performance
14.4:1 compression
Molnar crank
Oliver rods
KB aluminum block
Stage V street replacement head
Ray Barton single plane intake
APD 1250 Dominator on 112 race gas
Bullet solid roller cam 286/290 @ .050 .791 intake and .775 exhaust gross lift
TTI 2-1/4" primary tube with 4" collector

Car weighs 3465 with driver about 4 gallons low on fuel so we anticipate of it being right around 3500. I figured it would be a tad over 3400, but didn't expect it to weigh upwards of 3500.
727 transmission
Turbo action 8" converter 6500 stall
29.5x11.5w Hoosier slick
Dana 60 with 4.56 pro gear
Calvert split mono leaf with ladder bar and housing floater rear suspension
Strange double adjustable rear shocks
Stock torsion bar front end with Viking crusader double adjustable shocks

Car likes the engine speed in true Hemi fashion. The attempt is to shift it at 7500. I pulled the MSD grid data and looked like I shifted at 7,775 1-2 and 7,675 2-3 on the 5.72 pass. On the second pass which was 1st round, I shifted 1-2 at 7,875 and 2-3 at 7,675. Not sure of the ET on that pass because it was 1st round and I bailed after I came around the guy after the 330'. 1-2 I was shifting without looking at the tach because car is in the air. 2-3 I can look at tach and see where I am at. Over the winter the car is getting the air shifter hooked up as its a bracket car and we want consistency.


Last edited by 71Demon528; 09/03/24 10:43 AM.
Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: 71Demon528] #3255554
09/03/24 12:35 PM
09/03/24 12:35 PM
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Mt Morris Michigan
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Very nice. I have something similar, 572 Hemi BME aluminum block Stage V heads, but a bit smaller cam than yours,275/278@50 street deal with 12:1 compression. Still on the stand. Should be a couple hundred less pounds than yours in an A body. I did not know those 4.5" strokers would want to rev like that. Thats badass. Thanks for all the info.

Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: mopar dave] #3255630
09/03/24 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mopar dave
Very nice. I have something similar, 572 Hemi BME aluminum block Stage V heads, but a bit smaller cam than yours,275/278@50 street deal with 12:1 compression. Still on the stand. Should be a couple hundred less pounds than yours in an A body. I did not know those 4.5" strokers would want to rev like that. Thats badass. Thanks for all the info.


No problem Dave. I’m quite shocked at the RPM it likes. Yours sounds like a real sweet setup for the street! That will be a fun street car without a doubt. Do you plan on racing it as well? What is the car and combo?

Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: 71Demon528] #3255747
09/04/24 09:45 AM
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No racing, maybe a few 1/8 mile passes just to see. 67 Barracuda notchback, full interior with cage and narrowed dana with cal-tracs. Plan is to set it up close to race application, but drive on the street like i currently do with my 511 wedge. Something Chuck at Best Machine told me about these Hemi's is that most dont put enough stall behind them, so looking at using about 5800 in stall with the 727 and 4.10 gear. (may change this to a 3.73)
The components are Callies crank, rods and CP pistons. The heads are Custom Stage v from FHO and flowed 440@.700. Stage V 2x4 intake with a pair of BLP 950's from Dom@Thumpercarbs. Bullet solid roller 275/278@50-.700 net lift on a 110. (Chuck told me they made more power with smaller cams than mine) I also installed a gear drive. I still need the vert and the headers. Probably my last engine build(fingers crossed). Its a couple years down the road yet by the time i get to it and get all the mods done to install it. Rotating assembly done. Dont mean to rob your post, but i like to talk about cars, including my own. Thanks for asking

Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: mopar dave] #3255781
09/04/24 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mopar dave
No racing, maybe a few 1/8 mile passes just to see. 67 Barracuda notchback, full interior with cage and narrowed dana with cal-tracs. Plan is to set it up close to race application, but drive on the street like i currently do with my 511 wedge. Something Chuck at Best Machine told me about these Hemi's is that most dont put enough stall behind them, so looking at using about 5800 in stall with the 727 and 4.10 gear. (may change this to a 3.73)
The components are Callies crank, rods and CP pistons. The heads are Custom Stage v from FHO and flowed 440@.700. Stage V 2x4 intake with a pair of BLP 950's from Dom@Thumpercarbs. Bullet solid roller 275/278@50-.700 net lift on a 110. (Chuck told me they made more power with smaller cams than mine) I also installed a gear drive. I still need the vert and the headers. Probably my last engine build(fingers crossed). It’s a couple years down the road yet by the time i get to it and get all the mods done to install it. Rotating assembly done. Dont mean to rob your post, but i like to talk about cars, including my own. Thanks for asking


Thanks for sharing Dave. You’re not robbing anything! I love talking about cars as well. That will be a one cool setup your building. Chuck is 100% correct about these Hemis needing high stall converter. I would recommend a Turbo Action converter when you get there. I also bought the Stage V heads from FHO 10 years ago when we were running my dads 428 (.020 over) Hemi. Once the big engine was in the works, my builder had made some changes to the heads and they certainly responded well too. Be sure to keep me updated on your 67.

Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: 71Demon528] #3255842
09/04/24 06:05 PM
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A friend just put his Hemi back together. CNC Stage 5 heads, 283/290 cam, 12.2-1, Mopar Perf crossram, factory Hemi crossram carbs. 3600lb 64 Dodge, 4.10, Cal tracs, 10.5x29.5. The first few outings were disappointing. !0.20's mid 1.4x 60ft. Got the carbs working better. it went 10.0. Borrowed a converter and that woke it up. 1.32/9.73/136. Been shifting it around 6300 even though it goes thru close to 7300-7400. Personally I think with that big a cam it needs to be shifted higher. But at least it's going in the right dirrection.
Doug

Re: New personal best, but broken front end [Re: dvw] #3255859
09/04/24 08:29 PM
09/04/24 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dvw
A friend just put his Hemi back together. CNC Stage 5 heads, 283/290 cam, 12.2-1, Mopar Perf crossram, factory Hemi crossram carbs. 3600lb 64 Dodge, 4.10, Cal tracs, 10.5x29.5. The first few outings were disappointing. !0.20's mid 1.4x 60ft. Got the carbs working better. it went 10.0. Borrowed a converter and that woke it up. 1.32/9.73/136. Been shifting it around 6300 even though it goes thru close to 7300-7400. Personally I think with that big a cam it needs to be shifted higher. But at least it's going in the right dirrection.
Doug


Ya I’d agree Doug about the shifting. We used to shift dads 428 Hemi at 7,000 with a much smaller cam and smaller iron heads. It would go through the traps at 7600-7800 with 4.88 gear and 13x31-15 Phoenix slick. I’m sure your friends 64 has more in it from the sounds of it.

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