Can ball joints be bad and not show play in them
#3250485
08/10/24 12:14 AM
08/10/24 12:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,371 ILLINOIS
volaredon
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((add on to title) or have a bind or tight spot or broken stud? In the past I have been an alignment guy for nearly 20 years. Ive replaced more ball joints than I care to try to remember. I still have to replace ball joints when necessary at work and/or on my own stuff but now I don't get to do the alignment, I have to farm those out. This pertains to my own 12 Dodge 1500 2wd reg cab longbed. I've put nearly 50k of the truck"s 140k total miles since new. I've been eating front tires like crazy and have had an almost constant drift to the right. I had it aligned at around 113-115k ish. Looking at the printout I would have expected it to pull/drift left instead with the original readings "before ". But it didn't seem to eat the inside of the tires until after. According to the alignment printout it was pretty much dead nuts after the alignment not just "somewhere in range". At about 118k I needed tires on the front, I went and spent $600 on a pair of Michelins. 70k mile top of the line tires. I've had lots of em over the years and Michelins have done me well when I could afford them. Truck had 118k on it then. About 6k miles on the Michelins, I got a nail in one, I took it in for a patch. I noticed the inner most rib on both fronts wearing badly, and I had some more aggressive tires on back, would have been silly for me to put the highway tires on back and the all season/all terrain ones up front. So I swapped sides with them, which actually reversed the rotation of the fronts. By 13k on the Michelins I was damneer into the steel on the inner rib with the rest of the way across the tread the front tires looked like brand new. But I noticed that as soon as I went to those Michelins, my pull was gone, the truck drove better than it ever had. Until I discovered the oddball wear. At the time I discovered the odd wear, I ended up having no choice but to swap the Michelins to the back and put my cooper AT3 on the front. Another 6k later the at3s were chopped up and very noisey, and the Michelins (now on back) were showing cords in the inside but like new still across the rest of the tire face. I now replaced all 4 with the new model to market, cooper "road and trail* tires.
The very day I had these tires put o I noticed I had a bad front wheel bearing on the passenger side. I never heard the bearings howl with the AT3s on front. Those too (wheel bearings) were both new a year ago. And I specifically bought timken brand knowing they've basically been around forever. So last Sunday I re replaced the right front wheel bearing with a Napa "fleet grade" unit. From what I can see the Napa fleets are really mevotech "TTX" series bearings. But while changing that right front bearing for the 2nd time I noticed some of the same kind of wear on my new coopers but I caught it earlier i had on the Michelin and now having a matched set of 4 on it I went ahead and rotated the fronts to the back. I only have a few thousand miles on the newest Cooper's. My son has a 17, Cummins 4wd crew cab. I said something about my problem with my truck to him the last couple of days and he says "well according to the forums I'm on that's, typical of trucks like mine (diesel 3/4 ton 4wd) that's what they do when the ball joints need replaced ". Now, no matter how I jack up the front end /whether individually, directly under each lower control arm, (which is always how I've been taught to check ball joints on an SLA style suspension with 4 control arms, 4 ball joints and the spring on the lower control arm).
I've checked this truck more than a few times for front end part wear, and I can't detect any play in the ball joints. Whether with a long bar under the tires or grabbing the tire inside and outside at the bottom and tugging in and out, or pushing in and out at the top, grabbing the top and bottom of the tire and trying to shake it, no way I try to test, do I get any play. Neither seem to be binding as I sweep them left to right. But supposedly it's bad ball joints causing me to eat tires? I've never had a vehicle that I have had to replace the front tires 4 times in 50k miles. Including the ones that were on it when I bought it. And if a ball joint has a problem I've always been able to grab and feel the slop, as "proof".
I was looking at rock auto and I can't believe how inexpensive ball joints are for this truck and that's even if I buy any of the ones they have in their "premium" class of ball joints available for it. The cheapest of the economy grade are like $3 and change (not a misprint) I skipped right over those. I never buy the cheap grade for anything. Ever. (And yes I will stand by Moog, sorry for the naysayers) They had Moog listed in their "daily driver" and in their "premium" classes I was tempted to get the TTX mevotech but in 40 years of working on car and trucks suspension, I can count on one hand (even if I were missing a couple of fingers haha) how many times I have had problems with Moog parts. Yes I know that over the years they have come out with a cheaper line but again I don't buy the cheap line I have had exactly 2 made in China, Moog parts go thru my hands over the years. Those were inner tie rod ends on my 96 Dakota 4wd. And 60k miles later they're still going strong. Though I did have to buy brakes for this '12 anyway and besides wanting high quality trusted name brand parts, I was wanting everything from one place so I didn't have to pay 2 shipping's. I had 1 combo where they had a wholesale closeout on the first lowers I chose, but only had 1 available. I would have had to pay shipping from a "warehouse B" only for 1 ball joint. Wasn't happening. . So I got front and rear Bendix ceramic brakes "tow/haul/fleet" rated and 4 "premium" Moog ball joints coming from rock auto way cheaper than I could find them locally.
So what are we thinking with the appetite for front tires? Chance there's something going on with the ball joints even though I can't detect anything any way I can think of to test them.
I plan on going it aligned again sometime this month while my wife is off work on medical, before she goes back while I can borrow her ride for a couple of days.... And before I send it back for another alignment/ mostly because I found them so reasonable, I will be replacing the ball joints whether they need it or not before I do.
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Re: Can ball joints be bad and not show play in them
[Re: volaredon]
#3250512
08/10/24 07:51 AM
08/10/24 07:51 AM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 6,176 ohio
ruderunner
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What a rambling post. Makes it hard to determine just what your issues are. But I'll guess tire wear.
Binding ball joints are a thing but more often seen on solid axle since there's less movement when driving. They only rotate left and right vs up down left right like on IFS. Binding usually manifests as a pull or drift and I can't think of how they could cause tire wear.
Excessive inside edge wear is caused by excessive negative camber or toe settings out of whack. Either your alignment is off or something is worn allowing things to move in ways they shouldn't. First thing I'd check is toe because you can do this in the driveway easily.
I'd also take a close look at the bushings, given the age and mileage. If you have a helper, doing a "dry park" inspection would be good.
My experience with most alignment shops is that their techs are mostly toe and go guys and don't really understand the other angles or how to change them. Try to find a higher end shop or someone with gray hair.
Angry white pureblood male
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Re: Can ball joints be bad and not show play in them
[Re: ruderunner]
#3250526
08/10/24 09:25 AM
08/10/24 09:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,371 ILLINOIS
volaredon
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Yeah the truck is eating tires. I've never had such an issue with any other vehicle I've ever owned Yeah I agree about being hard to find a good alignment shop. Ever since I got away from being the alignment guy myself I've been having a hard time finding a good shop. Every time I have paid to have one done (and why it pisses me off any time I have to pay to "have" anything done that I can't do myself) I have to take it back, something isn't right, and always end up taking it to another shop and paying again to have the job redone. And the guy who did my truck has been that 2nd guy who I've taken my past vehicles to, when somebody else didn't do them right. So I went to him first this time. Before this time he's always been the guy who has been able to correct the bad first alignment. I think this time he's the one who screwed it up. He's cost me lots on replacing tires since I took it there.
It makes it worse when I WAS an alignment guy for so many years myself. The bad part is I have to drop my stuff off because these places are only open the same hours I work. Meaning I guess im gonna have to go back to standing right there and telling the alignment guy "pull the front of that control arm out another 1/8" "turn that right sleeve out 1/4 turn". Further meaning I will have to take off of work to be able to babysit the job.
I've been back to a former shop that I used to work at with my Durango and asked them to align it and was told by my former boss "I don't think the guy I have now has ever aligned anything with a slip shaft" and was told to take that one to a competitor down the street. And it drove like [censored] when they were done. Even after I took it back a 2nd time. So I took it to the guy who I took this truck to, paid a second time and that one was finally right. That one drives great and doesn't eat tires. Neither of those shops were the guy who aligned my truck last.
Sorry about the "rambling post" but I've been on forums too long where pot post for help and don't post all the needed info for the other guys on the forum to even be able to help. So I wanted to get everything out there.
Last edited by volaredon; 08/10/24 09:30 AM.
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Re: Can ball joints be bad and not show play in them
[Re: volaredon]
#3250622
08/10/24 05:23 PM
08/10/24 05:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 6,176 ohio
ruderunner
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I'm a former front end tech myself so I see the same thing. I've got a well equipped workshop and pretty much the only things I farm out are tires, alignment and body.
Angry white pureblood male
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Re: Can ball joints be bad and not show play in them
[Re: volaredon]
#3250688
08/11/24 04:34 AM
08/11/24 04:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,807 Freeport IL USA
poorboy
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volaredon, My 1st thoughts were the toe setting is off. The second thought was the extra weight of the motor is catching up with the old, probably original suspension. Replace the ball joints, check the tie rod ends for wear, check the control arm bushings, and consider that the front springs may be shot. Moog suspension parts are not nearly as good as they used to be, there are so many naysayers because the products have gone down hill so fast, but the old guys keep buying the old name.
One of the problems with the Cummmins trucks was because the motor was so heavy, the suspension couldn't handle the weight. Parts wore out faster, and unexpected things cause the front to sag under the weight, even some of the frames spread apart under the load. You have no idea what extra weight the truck may have carried during those first 100,000 miles. If you picture the truck sagging and everything spreading under heavy weight, the first wear point is going to be the inside edge of the tires. Every bump can be scrubbing off that inside edge. Damage to the truck from being overload won't show up in a wheel alignment, those numbers don't show stuff moving from the front end that might be spreading out under a load like a bump on the road.
the old solid axle 4x4 trucks fared better under excess weight, but the newer independent front axle 4x4 or the front suspension of a 2 wheel drive truck didn't have the advantage the solid axle had, those independent front suspensions transferred the stress of being over weight to the suspension mounting points and the frame.
Replace all the parts in the front suspension because they are cheaper then a set of tires, but I suspect your problem may not be the wheel alignment, it may the the result of 100,000 miles of the truck being overloaded. Maybe a trip to a frame straightening rack may show that problem and how to fix it.
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Re: Can ball joints be bad and not show play in them
[Re: poorboy]
#3250696
08/11/24 06:46 AM
08/11/24 06:46 AM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 6,176 ohio
ruderunner
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Poorboy, Don's truck is a half ton 2wd. Someone else owns a 4wd Cummins that got mentioned in the original rambling post. And the Cummins 4wd are all solid axle.
That said, frame bending is a thing, 95 to ? Explorers are known for it but I've not heard of it in the Rams. We've had an 09 and a 15 and neither had tire wear problems though both were IFS 4WD.
I'd still start with a toe check and a dry park inspection. I wouldn't just throw ball joints and tie rods on if they have no play.
Angry white pureblood male
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Re: Can ball joints be bad and not show play in them
[Re: ruderunner]
#3250723
08/11/24 10:08 AM
08/11/24 10:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,117 rust belt
Moparite
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This pertains to my own 12 Dodge 1500 2wd reg cab longbed. Well it's not solid axle or 4wd. What a rambling post. Makes it hard to determine just what your issues are. Would have to agree, Just vital info is all that's needed. I don't know what the front ends look like in a 2012 but something is not right if it's wearing tires.
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Re: Can ball joints be bad and not show play in them
[Re: Moparite]
#3250878
08/11/24 11:08 PM
08/11/24 11:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,371 ILLINOIS
volaredon
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Well I'm at 141k miles, as far as I can tell still have original ball joints, and i got all 4 coming from rock auto and f+r "premium Bendix" brakes for. just under $200 including shipping to my door. . That pair of Michelins I wasted was $600. Even though I can't detect play in them, I'm changing the ball joints out when the brown truck shows up with them. It's only got a 4.7 in it, but it was sa Fastenal truck before I got it. And I certainly don't have to pay someone else to install them Just have to go to my detached garage and put it on my 2 post lift and get to it. I do dry park front end checks all day long at work on international 7400 dump trucks as I do the 6 month dot inspections for my work, I generally don't see alot in those truck's kingpins on a dry park with the weight of the truck on the wheels, on the ground/ mostly the drag links and tie rods. But that's telling, too.
My other question which I don't think can be answered here is whether to try and trust the guy who last aligned it for me, as I've used his service before on my other vehicles/ and before this truck he's been the guy who has fixed bad alignment experiences for me on those. He's the first and so far only other person to touch this truck besides me since I have owned it. Even tires, I either buy them and take them to work and mount them myself or I remove them myself and take only the tires/wheels in to have new ones mounted and then put them back on myself Even when I was the alignment guy there were certain vehicles that were kryptonite, that gave me fits... Could this truck be "that" for him? It is my first vehicle I have owned where the camber and caster adjustment is on the lower control arm instead of the upper ... Maybe that's got something to do with it I dunno at this point.
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Re: Can ball joints be bad and not show play in them
[Re: ruderunner]
#3250954
08/12/24 12:21 PM
08/12/24 12:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2022
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Andyvh1959
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Agreed on all points. Dry binding in ball joints can occur if a seal boot has a small not obivous crack. Ball joints would have to be really bad (like to the point of total failing) to cause bad tire wear. A quality alignment check at a real suspension shop will tell a lot.
Sometimes tire wear, like excessive cupping, can actually be caused by worn out shocks not providing the damping needed to reduce tire wear. Cheap shocks are just that, cheap and only good for damping control for a LOT less miles than people assume. Shocks don't have to exhibit obvious exterior failing (leaks, oil) to have failed entirely at what they need to do. Again, a quality suspension shop can help with this.
My 56 C3-B8 Dakota build
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Re: Can ball joints be bad and not show play in them
[Re: volaredon]
#3251157
08/13/24 11:41 AM
08/13/24 11:41 AM
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Joined: Nov 2022
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Andyvh1959
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If your tire pressure was good, that kind of fast uniform wear most likely is the alignment. Maybe also noticed more fuel use? How about the rear tires though. If the front ttires wore out much faster and uniformly versus the rear tires then poor front end alignment is the most likely cause.
If the alignment was that far off to create accelerated tire wear then heat is also an issue. Heat in the tire carcass can significantly accerlate tread wear
My 56 C3-B8 Dakota build
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