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Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Mike P] #3025848
03/20/22 08:34 PM
03/20/22 08:34 PM
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Mike P Offline OP
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The heads aren’t back yet but I got the front cover and pan on this week and I got the balancer taken care of.

There are a few options for bolt-on balancers available for the early HEMI. The “stock replacement” balancer that Hot Heads sells is not currently available. These were off the shelf 318/340 balancers for the internally balanced small blocks. They had a new keyway cut for the larger key the HEMI crankshaft uses and are indexed so the timing marks lined up with the timing pointer on the Hot Heads timing cover. Even if they had been available it was still cheaper to have the machine shop cut the new keyway in the balancer I bought.

[Linked Image]MB by M Patterson, on Flickr


I decided to build my own accessory brackets for this engine. Nothing against the aluminum brackets that Hot Heads sells but they are a little gaudy for how I want this engine to look. Saving a few bucks is always a plus too so this is pretty much a win win.


For the Power Steering Pump I just duplicated the brackets I had previously made for the 57 Plymouth. It’s basically a slightly modified SB Chevy Saginaw bracket and a couple of braces to hold the pump solid.


[Linked Image]HP1 by M Patterson, on Flickr



[Linked Image]HP3 by M Patterson, on Flickr


[Linked Image]PSI by M Patterson, on Flickr



The alternator bracket is pretty easy to do. On my pervious 2 HEMIs I modified a 69-82 SB Chevy Truck/Corvette bracket.


[Linked Image]SBPS by M Patterson, on Flickr


I actually have a spare bracket I’d previously modified laying around. I’d also picked up a different bracket for a 69-71 Chevy truck with AC a while back and decided to modified that one too (which entailed nothing more than elongating the mounting holes and grinding a small clearance notch). I’m not sure which one I’ll be using yet, the 69-71 bracket moves the alternator out and up a bit which may be helpful with the 6 pack air cleaner.


[Linked Image]AB by M Patterson, on Flickr



I got some of the pieces for the AC compressor bracket rough cut but can’t really do much with that until I get the heads and water crossover are on the engine.

So back to staring at the short block and waiting on parts. LOL


1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold
1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears) under construction
Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Mike P] #3025948
03/21/22 08:27 AM
03/21/22 08:27 AM
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Mike: I can't see how you get belt tension adjustment with your PS pump bracket. Maybe I'm missing something?

Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: earlymopar] #3025951
03/21/22 09:05 AM
03/21/22 09:05 AM
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Mike P Offline OP
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Good catch. You're correct the PS pump is stationary. I failed to mention the belt for the PS pump also drives the water pump and alternator. The alternator will be the tensioner for that belt.

Here's the same setup on my 57 Plymouth.

[Linked Image]HP4 by M Patterson, on Flickr


1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold
1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears) under construction
Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Mike P] #3026133
03/21/22 07:23 PM
03/21/22 07:23 PM
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Good solution!

Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: earlymopar] #3026215
03/21/22 10:31 PM
03/21/22 10:31 PM
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Mike P Offline OP
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Something I forgot to post is that as the HEMI and Poly blocks are the same, the information I posted about the oil pans, windage trays, timing cover, water pump conversion, balancer,and pulleys apply whether it's a 301/331/354 HEMI or Poly engine.

Also as far as the brackets I'm building (or the ones Hot Heads sells) they should also interchange between Poly and HEMI motors. The power steering pump bracket mounts to the timing cover and the alternator bracket uses the water crossover bolts to retain it. The AC bracket that I'm building will use 2 manifold bolts and the water crossover bolts on the passenger side.

Even the intake manifold interchanges between the 2 engines.


1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold
1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears) under construction
Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Mike P] #3027834
03/26/22 06:45 PM
03/26/22 06:45 PM
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Mike P Offline OP
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Aaahhhh…..what could have been. LOL


[Linked Image]WCB 1 by M Patterson, on Flickr



I got the flywheel and bellhousing on this week so I could move the short-block over to the run stand for final assembly. Still waiting on the heads so I figured I’d go ahead and throw the Poly heads on and finish up the brackets. I couldn’t resist digging out the old Tri-Power just to see how it would have looked. Spent entirely too much time staring at it LOL.


I finally took the Tri-Power off and installed the Hot Heads intake and went ahead and built the AC Compressor brackets. I duplicated the PAW AC bracket I’m using on the 57 Plymouth. The design is pretty simple, just a bit of work getting everything lined up with the bolt holes before welding it together. I had enough material left over I ended up making 2 sets (just in case I ever do come across a buildable Spitfire). I only did one set of spacers as they are unique to whatever manifold I use.

[Linked Image]AC B by M Patterson, on Flickr


So that pretty much wraps up the accessories. The more I study the Poly the more impressed I am with what Chrysler did. They designed a completely new head but with the exception of the pistons everything in the short-block is the same between the Poly and HEMI. They incorporated design features that allowed all external parts (with the exception of the exhaust manifolds) to interchange between the HEMI and POLY. Basically pretty much anything you can bolt to a HEMI will also fit a Poly.



[Linked Image]ACB by M Patterson, on Flickr


.

Last edited by Mike P; 03/27/22 07:22 PM.

1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold
1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears) under construction
Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Mike P] #3027971
03/27/22 07:45 AM
03/27/22 07:45 AM
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Yes, anytime you design something to be "convertible" (in this case able to be converted to either Hemi or Poly) the design effort is much more involved.

Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: earlymopar] #3028433
03/28/22 06:10 PM
03/28/22 06:10 PM
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north of coder
moparx Offline
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you did a GREAT job Mike ! up bow
my hat's off to you, and i recognize good machinist skills when i see them ! boogie
beer

Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: moparx] #3030366
04/03/22 06:59 PM
04/03/22 06:59 PM
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Mike P Offline OP
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The heads got done last week.

[Linked Image]TNH by M Patterson, on Flickr

As I posted earlier one was pretty badly pitted from sitting in a car trunk for at least 40 years. It took milling .040 off to clean it up. It’s actually not as much as it sounds though as when the factory put it together they used a steel shim head gasket with a compressed thickness of .024. The FelPro head gaskets I’m using are between .041 and .047 (depending on which reference you believe) so from a compression standpoint it’s effectively only about a .020 cut.

The rest was pretty straight forward. New stainless valves, stock 1 ¾” exhaust and we stepped up the intake to 2” (from the stock 1 15/16”). They also got new springs, keepers and locks.

The only thing that was really added are the lower spark plug tube seals. I’m running the same heads on the 331 in the 37 Dodge truck and any time you pull a plug it ends up coating the tip in oil (makes it awful hard to take a plug reading) and then it smokes like a train when you start it because of all the oil in the cylinders. It’s funny the 354 in the Plymouth doesn’t seem to have that problem.

Anyway the heads are on, pushrods adjusted and the oil system primed. With any luck I may here it run sometime this week.



.


1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold
1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears) under construction
Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Mike P] #3032340
04/10/22 01:47 PM
04/10/22 01:47 PM
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Mike P Offline OP
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Well it’s alive……Really wasn’t planning on it taking 3 ½ years but life happens.


[Linked Image]CVC by M Patterson, on Flickr

I still want to build a Poly at some point and I might have a line on a 57 354 Spitfire but I’ll have to wait and see what pans out.

I’d sent out a pair of stock valve cover and 6 pack air cleaner lid to be powder coated and even got my granddaughter to paint the lettering on the valve covers. They’re not perfect but I figure getting my teenage Granddaughter to even come out to the shop and not having her off her phone is still a win. For now though I decided to use the finned aluminum valve covers that I’d had on the 57 Plymouth.

[Linked Image] SVC by M Patterson, on Flickr



Overall I’m happy having another HEMI. Last week was filled with the little aggravations that can sometimes plague a project. It wasn’t so much the engine itself, which went together nicely. A lot of it was things associated with the run stand. Seems like when I moved it to the back shed a few years ago I didn’t figure I’d ever have another engine on it so I had ended up stripping almost all the wiring for the Chrysler Electronic ignition off of it. The fuel pump had gone bad along with the radiator cap (that didn’t show up till the engine got to 190 degrees when I was doing the cam break-in). That was all in addition to some minor carburetor issues. Over all the cam break-in went well in spite of everything. I did have a couple of timing cover bolts that leaked coolant, naturally one was behind the water pump that I couldn’t get to without pulling the pump but it wasn’t horribly painful…..just aggravating.





I’ts a little more cam than I normally select for a street engine but I do like the way it sounds.


https://youtu.be/sg3Ns4OV3w0



I still have some dialing in to do, and also a brace to build for the air cleaner, but I’m pretty happy with how it turned out.



.

Last edited by Mike P; 04/10/22 01:51 PM.

1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold
1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears) under construction
Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Mike P] #3032513
04/11/22 07:51 AM
04/11/22 07:51 AM
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Looks Great! Congratulations

Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Mike P] #3032691
04/11/22 06:29 PM
04/11/22 06:29 PM
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Amazing job on the engine!


GOTBOOST!New improved with Victor heads.
http://www.enginelabs.com/mopar-big-bloc...t-of-necessity/
Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Mike P] #3049941
06/12/22 02:31 PM
06/12/22 02:31 PM
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How are you liking the weight of those early hemi heads? whistling grin
I cut my teeth on making HP on a 1955 New Yorker 331 hemi motor in a 1933 Ford Pickup that had the cab chopped and channel with a very short hand made sheet metal bed boogie
That truck broke a lot of parts (mainly the early ford enclosed drive train realcrazy) and whup on a lot of "modern muscle cars" back in the md 1960 boogie
As far as filling the spark plug holes in the heads you need to run it long enough for oil to splash in them to fill them, those Milidon sela may help some but the early heads where cast in those heads and the Mildon plug seals need a smooth surface for the O rings to seal up well against, not a real course cast surface shruggy
Looking good, I hope it runs as well as it looks up


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Cab_Burge] #3050107
06/13/22 09:23 AM
06/13/22 09:23 AM
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Mike P Offline OP
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“…..How are you liking the weight of those early hemi heads?......”





Just hoping I’m never in a situation where I ever have to pull one or both heads off “in car”. Of course some of the OE cast iron intakes also weigh within a few pounds of the heads so it's a pretty good workout…..I suspect that’s a job I would farm out to my Grandson LOL.



“…..As far as filling the spark plug holes in the heads you need to run it long enough for oil to splash in them to fill them, those Milidon sela may help some but the early heads where cast in those heads and the Mildon plug seals need a smooth surface for the O rings to seal up well against, not a real course cast surface…..”



Yup your right, and the lower tube seals only have an O ring on the inside and there is no provisions on the seals for an O ring on the outside The tube seals I used are just a bit larger than the factory plug wells and require the top of the plug well to be slightly milled for them to fit (a which also provides a smooth finish). Just to be sure when we installed the seals we used a bit a Green Locktite sealer.


[Linked Image]tube seals by M Patterson, on Flickr






I’m currently catching up on some other jobs around here but when I get a little time there are a couple things I want to address on the HEMI. I do have a slight oil leak from the valley pan and with the intake on I can’t get to the bolts. Pulling the intake off is in the cards anyway.



After I got the engine together I read that the Holley Sniper system I’m thinking about installing has some issues when used with a dual plane intake with a plenum divider. The band-aid is a 1” open spacer and the cures are either finding a single plane intake or partially milling the divider. So when I do get around to addressing oil leak the intake will get a bit of work.


Last edited by Mike P; 06/13/22 09:37 AM.

1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold
1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears) under construction
Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Mike P] #3052239
06/21/22 07:58 PM
06/21/22 07:58 PM
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How about buying and using a stock 2x4 singl scopee plane intake with dual throttle bodies?
I did that for a local customer on a KB aluminum 426 Street Hemi with stage V heads and his single plane in line dual four-barrel intake, that work very well up


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Cab_Burge] #3052315
06/22/22 06:21 AM
06/22/22 06:21 AM
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Mike P Offline OP
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“….. How about buying and using a stock 2x4 single plane intake with dual throttle bodies? …..”

I looked at that type of setup briefly. This will be my first foray into standalone aftermarket injection so I’m leaning towards something simple and well supported……and I admit cost is also a factor.

.


1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold
1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears) under construction
Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Mike P] #3082484
10/02/22 02:02 PM
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I think one of the EFI companies are making a dual throttle body EFI system now to fit our projects without direct port EFI injectors scope
Sorry for not remembering the correct brand name blush


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Poly / Hemi Build [Re: Cab_Burge] #3237492
06/09/24 02:20 PM
06/09/24 02:20 PM
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Mike P Offline OP
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Thought I’d do a quick update on the 354. I did a build video on the engine and put it on You Tube. For the next couple of years this is where the engine sat and was occasionally run as I looked for a 55-56 Dodge or Plymouth body to put it in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzFdDWr1XcY

Due to health and back issues I decided to scrap the idea of a 55-56 Dodge or Plymouth and elected to go with a late 60s/early 70s A Body and ended up with a 68 Valiant for the engines new home.


[Linked Image]valiant 2 by M Patterson, on Flickr


Naturally the change to a later body required a few changes to the engine.

First on the list was digging up a 57-58 hemi/poly oil pan to clear the steering linkage.


[Linked Image]zz Pans by M Patterson, on Flickr

Then I had to find an oil pump pick-up that would work. As I’m using a Hot Heads oil pump ( a modified 318/340 pump with an adapter plate) a 64 and up 318/340 passenger car oil pick-up worked and unlike the original 392 pick-up these are available new.


[Linked Image]zz PU 3 by M Patterson, on Flickr


We’re using a second 68 Valiant for mock-up, which works out well to identify interference issues and get motor mounts built. One unexpected issue we ran into was the Hot Heads intake was just plain too tall and would require a lot taller scoop than I wanted.


[Linked Image]zz HR by M Patterson, on Flickr


I tried a factory single 4 BBL intake and that helped a bit but it was still taller than I wanted. From first hand experience I knew the 57-58 392 Dual Quad intake (or the WEIAND 7236 which was basically an aluminum copy of the original factory intake) was about the lowest intake available. I found an older Weiand intake (a WC2QE, produced before Holley bought out Weiand and relabeled/renumbered it).


[Linked Image]DC1 by M Patterson, on Flickr


This looks like it’s about as low as it’s going to get with the manifold.


[Linked Image]DC2 by M Patterson, on Flickr


I have a pair of 550 Carter AFBs on the shelf, but from running dual quads on the 57 Plymouth I found the old HEMI seems to like 650 CFM carbs a bit better, so I set it up with a pair of AVS2s as a starting point. Building the linkage and fuel lines was pretty straight forward.


[Linked Image]intake carbs by M Patterson, on Flickr


Setting it up on the engine stand is a lot easier than stretching out over a fender and I was able to get the initial timing done and idle dialed in. I also started modifying the air cleaner base and this is where I’m at on that right now…..I can possibly get up to another inch lower but for now this is where I’m at until I get the engine in the car and the hood on.

[Linked Image]DQ AC by M Patterson, on Flickr


We deleted the power steering pump and brackets as I’ll be using an EPAS electric power steering unit on the car. There will be a couple of other changes before the HEMI goes into the Valiant. The really tall PAW valve covers will be replaced with a pair of shorter moon covers and the headers will be swapped out for 55-56 exhaust manifolds. The manifolds aren’t optimum but they do fit and my back won’t let me do all the under-car stuff I’d have to do to custom build a set of headers. That being said I ran the same exhaust manifolds on the 354 in my 57 Plymouth for many years with no issues and so for now that’s what’s going on the car.


If any one is interested, I’m doing a build thread on the Valiant in the “Member Projects & Survivor Pictures” section of the forum.

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthread...1/1968-valiant-1st-gen-hemi-project.html


.


1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold
1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears) under construction
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