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Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: poorboy] #3238391
06/13/24 08:01 PM
06/13/24 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by poorboy
The Ballast resister will not reduce the voltage until it gets hot. It is the heat that causes the resistance. If you are checking the resistance while the resister is cold, it will read battery voltage. With in about 30 seconds of having voltage pass through it,, the resistance should start to increase. After the resister has warmed up, you should be able to see the voltage reduction.

3 miles on a coil with 12 volts should not be enough to cook a coil, unless it was nearly junk to start with. I'm betting the coil is not your problem.

My guess is you have a different problem, but I have no idea where to start looking, given the history of the van.

At this point, I believe I would test the electronic pickup in the distributor. There is a test procedure, but I would have to look it up and don't have time to do that right now.

There is a way to test the coil as well to see if it will produce a spark, but I'm not sure how to communicate that to you. All I can say is with the old points, the negative wire off the coil grounded through the closed points. When the points were closed, the coil was energized. when the points opened, the coil would shoot off a spark. Back in those days, if you closed the points, with 12 volts to the coil, then opened the points with a screw driver on the points arm, the coil would produce a single spark spark each time you let the points close, then opened them again. That entire process of closing the points and opening them to have the coil give off a spark only takes a matter of seconds. Opening the points broke the 12 volt circuit ground and caused the coil to create a spark.

You should be able to use a test wire connected to the negative side of the coil, have a good coil wire (the one that goes to the center of the distributor cap) in the center post of the coil resting on a good ground with a little less then a 1/4" air gap to the ground, where you can easily see the spark jump. With 12 volts going to the positive side of the coil, and the test wire connected to the negative side of the coil, and the bared other end on a good ground, with a coil wire in the coil terminal, position yourself where you can clearly see the open end of the coil wire and the nearby ground (1/4" or less away), watch for the spark and remove the test wire from the ground. The spark should happen immediately. If the set up is correct, every time to connect the test wire to ground a few seconds and remove it, you should get a spark. With the motor running a 1,000 rpm, that spark is happening 1,000 times each second.

Test the coil. Test the distributer pick up. If both test good, test the plate the distributer pick up plate is screwed down to and make sure it has a good ground. if all 3 test good, the problem is likely a bad brain box for the ignition, or a wiring problem some place. .


I'm pretty sure the resistor had plenty of time to warm up when checking the voltage. I had the key in the ON position for more than 30 seconds for sure and I also checked multiple times! I'll check again in a little while...
Yeah, I don't see how 3 miles of driving could've fried the new coil especially since the last coil lasted such a long time with much higher voltage... That last coil was the same coil it had when I bought the van over 12 years ago!

I don't have an electronic pickup in my distributor! It's a magnetic pickup in a relatively new distributor of which I just set the gap in... BUT the reason I was in the distributor to begin with was because it was having trouble starting one morning and after checking things over I found that the two pickup wires coming out of the distributor wire were cracked open!!! I figured they were shorting on eachother and what I did was splice them open, twist them and sealed them with some shrinkwrap and after that the van was running great! That was around the same time I discovered the overcharging issue and opened that thread a few months back...
Going back to the coil... There's no spark coming out of it and I checked with different wires! There's the 12 volts that it shouldn't have going to the positive side of it so if the coil was still good I should see spark right???

Thanks for taking the time to detail the instructions to test the coil! I'll do my best to try and understand and do that test in a little while when I go recheck the resistor!

Before I forget! Another little detail that might be related which I found strange was that when I got home from that 3 mile drive with the new coil it stalled out on me in reverse and then backfired once when I started it back up! I parked it and that was the last time it ran!
I found it strange because about 100 miles ago I spent all night tuning everything according to the manuals! I set the curb idle and fast idle correctly! I set the timing to about 12° advanced and adjusted the air/fuel mixture in the carb! That van was running so nice and still is when it's running which is why I found it strange that it backfired and that's why I mention that because it might be an important clue!

Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: poorboy] #3238393
06/13/24 08:26 PM
06/13/24 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by poorboy

My guess is you have a different problem, but I have no idea where to start looking, given the history of the van.

At this point, I believe I would test the electronic pickup in the distributor. There is a test procedure, but I would have to look it up and don't have time to do that right now.


Magnetic not electronic.... I did the gap a couple of months ago and I did it with the nonmagnetic feelers!

IMG_20240613_170614489.jpg
Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3238394
06/13/24 08:31 PM
06/13/24 08:31 PM
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I also want to show you guys two pictures of components that are different from what the wiring diagram for this van year is showing me! Whether it's related to the issues I'm having with the van idk...

First one is the oil pressure switch... The one in the van is a 3 connector switch but the diagram shows a single connector switch!

Edit: ok, so I found that the 3 male connector oil pressure switch belongs to the 1985-1987 year vans...
That's something I replaced long ago and with the same one because that's what was in it already and that's also a part that would pop up when searching for parts for my exact year van... All my parts searches would show that the 3 connector switch is compatible with my van....
I'm definitely starting to notice some problems here!
The white wire is the one that's supposed to be there! The black wire is the one going to that little ballast that goes to the choke and the red wire goes to the splice where the voltage drop is occuring! Could this be the issue with the overcharging???
I think this is obviously the wrong pressure switch for my van!

IMG_20240613_170507773.jpgIMG_20240613_173128101.jpg
Last edited by B300 VanDanage; 06/13/24 09:11 PM.
Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3238398
06/13/24 08:50 PM
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Here's the second component that seams out of place and I don't see this one in the diagram at all!!!
It's obviously some sort of ballast resistor... The black wire at the top goes to the oil pressure switch and the one on the bottom goes to the choke thermostat... Is that even right?? Could this be causing an issue???
When I replaced the coil this was the only component I touched because it uses the same bolt the coil bracket does and after that the whole "overcharging issue" went away for a few minutes... Maybe it was just a coincidence but I thought I'd bring it up...

IMG_20240613_170514298.jpg
Last edited by B300 VanDanage; 06/13/24 08:50 PM.
Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3238400
06/13/24 09:17 PM
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I think that whoever had the van before me did a few things to it that I may be paying the price for! Whatever I've done in the past in regards to the parts swapping was just that and I didn't know enough about electrical to see these components don't belong in this van! At least the oil pressure switch and who knows what else but that's what I'm trying to figure out! Now that I'm learning more about this stuff I'm starting to notice these things!!

Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3238410
06/13/24 10:28 PM
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So I just discovered that this 3 prong oil pressure switch has a red wire coming out of it and I followed it and it goes to the 'emissions speed switch' which is part of the splice that goes to the ballast, voltage regulator etc... I think I may have just found the reason for the overcharging??? If not that then at least I know now that this is all wired incorrectly!
I need the correct oil pressure switch (single blade) and I'm going to remove the red wire!
The wire from the oil pressure switch to the choke is probably wrong also.... I just don't see where it's suppose to connect too! I don't see it in the diagram!

Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3238416
06/13/24 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by B300 VanDanage
Here's the second component that seams out of place and I don't see this one in the diagram at all!!!
It's obviously some sort of ballast resistor... The black wire at the top goes to the oil pressure switch and the one on the bottom goes to the choke thermostat... Is that even right?? Could this be causing an issue???
When I replaced the coil this was the only component I touched because it uses the same bolt the coil bracket does and after that the whole "overcharging issue" went away for a few minutes... Maybe it was just a coincidence but I thought I'd bring it up...


i believe they used something similar for the electric chokes shruggy

Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: TJP] #3238426
06/13/24 11:47 PM
06/13/24 11:47 PM
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Chevy Vega had a three prong oil pressure switch that shut off the engine when pressure got low. It was bypassed when starting.

Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3238597
06/15/24 12:07 AM
06/15/24 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by B300 VanDanage
Originally Posted by poorboy
The Ballast resister will not reduce the voltage until it gets hot. It is the heat that causes the resistance. If you are checking the resistance while the resister is cold, it will read battery voltage. With in about 30 seconds of having voltage pass through it,, the resistance should start to increase. After the resister has warmed up, you should be able to see the voltage reduction.

3 miles on a coil with 12 volts should not be enough to cook a coil, unless it was nearly junk to start with. I'm betting the coil is not your problem.

My guess is you have a different problem, but I have no idea where to start looking, given the history of the van.

At this point, I believe I would test the electronic pickup in the distributor. There is a test procedure, but I would have to look it up and don't have time to do that right now.

There is a way to test the coil as well to see if it will produce a spark, but I'm not sure how to communicate that to you. All I can say is with the old points, the negative wire off the coil grounded through the closed points. When the points were closed, the coil was energized. when the points opened, the coil would shoot off a spark. Back in those days, if you closed the points, with 12 volts to the coil, then opened the points with a screw driver on the points arm, the coil would produce a single spark spark each time you let the points close, then opened them again. That entire process of closing the points and opening them to have the coil give off a spark only takes a matter of seconds. Opening the points broke the 12 volt circuit ground and caused the coil to create a spark.

You should be able to use a test wire connected to the negative side of the coil, have a good coil wire (the one that goes to the center of the distributor cap) in the center post of the coil resting on a good ground with a little less then a 1/4" air gap to the ground, where you can easily see the spark jump. With 12 volts going to the positive side of the coil, and the test wire connected to the negative side of the coil, and the bared other end on a good ground, with a coil wire in the coil terminal, position yourself where you can clearly see the open end of the coil wire and the nearby ground (1/4" or less away), watch for the spark and remove the test wire from the ground. The spark should happen immediately. If the set up is correct, every time to connect the test wire to ground a few seconds and remove it, you should get a spark. With the motor running a 1,000 rpm, that spark is happening 1,000 times each second.

Test the coil. Test the distributer pick up. If both test good, test the plate the distributer pick up plate is screwed down to and make sure it has a good ground. if all 3 test good, the problem is likely a bad brain box for the ignition, or a wiring problem some place. .


I'm pretty sure the resistor had plenty of time to warm up when checking the voltage. I had the key in the ON position for more than 30 seconds for sure and I also checked multiple times! I'll check again in a little while...
Yeah, I don't see how 3 miles of driving could've fried the new coil especially since the last coil lasted such a long time with much higher voltage... That last coil was the same coil it had when I bought the van over 12 years ago!

I don't have an electronic pickup in my distributor! It's a magnetic pickup in a relatively new distributor of which I just set the gap in... BUT the reason I was in the distributor to begin with was because it was having trouble starting one morning and after checking things over I found that the two pickup wires coming out of the distributor wire were cracked open!!! I figured they were shorting on eachother and what I did was splice them open, twist them and sealed them with some shrinkwrap and after that the van was running great! That was around the same time I discovered the overcharging issue and opened that thread a few months back...
Going back to the coil... There's no spark coming out of it and I checked with different wires! There's the 12 volts that it shouldn't have going to the positive side of it so if the coil was still good I should see spark right???

Thanks for taking the time to detail the instructions to test the coil! I'll do my best to try and understand and do that test in a little while when I go recheck the resistor!

Before I forget! Another little detail that might be related which I found strange was that when I got home from that 3 mile drive with the new coil it stalled out on me in reverse and then backfired once when I started it back up! I parked it and that was the last time it ran!
I found it strange because about 100 miles ago I spent all night tuning everything according to the manuals! I set the curb idle and fast idle correctly! I set the timing to about 12° advanced and adjusted the air/fuel mixture in the carb! That van was running so nice and still is when it's running which is why I found it strange that it backfired and that's why I mention that because it might be an important clue!


So the red highlighted area says that you "spliced them open, twisted them, and sealed them with some shrinkwrap."

You are assuming those wires that are twisted together are making good contact under that shrink wrap. If that connection is not good, you won't have any spark. By the looks of the entire wire (in the picture on your next post), I would suggest that you find a complete new replacement wire harness (or pigtail) for the wires from the coil to the pickup in the distributer. They might be available ordered through a parts store) If either of those two wires are grounding anyplace (like where they pass through the distributer housing) you will not get a spark.

The green highlighted area: That backfire and the motor dying was probably caused by the twisted wires in the shrink wrap loosing connection, or the wires shorting to ground someplace between the distributer and the coil. Replace those wires, and solve your problem.

Last edited by poorboy; 06/15/24 12:12 AM.
Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: poorboy] #3238652
06/15/24 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by poorboy


So the red highlighted area says that you "spliced them open, twisted them, and sealed them with some shrinkwrap."

You are assuming those wires that are twisted together are making good contact under that shrink wrap. If that connection is not good, you won't have any spark. By the looks of the entire wire (in the picture on your next post), I would suggest that you find a complete new replacement wire harness (or pigtail) for the wires from the coil to the pickup in the distributer. They might be available ordered through a parts store) If either of those two wires are grounding anyplace (like where they pass through the distributer housing) you will not get a spark.

The green highlighted area: That backfire and the motor dying was probably caused by the twisted wires in the shrink wrap loosing connection, or the wires shorting to ground someplace between the distributer and the coil. Replace those wires, and solve your problem.


I understand that if the pickup wires aren't making connection there won't be spark coming out of the distributor but I'm not checking for spark coming from the distributor, I'm checking for spark coming out of the coil! If the coil is getting voltage, whether it's too high or not then I should still see spark coming out of the coil wire until the coil gets fried right?
I just installed the new coil and ballast and it's fixed nothing! Infact there's actually 0.3 more volts going to the coil now with the new resistor!
How would the pickup factor in to no spark coming out of the coil and 12 volts coming from the resistor when it's suppose to be around 8.5???
It's a long way from the pickup to the coil and they're not directly connected as I see it...
The wires from the pickup go to the ignition control module and the only wire I see that would tie the coil and the pickup together is a green wire that comes out of the ICM and directly to the resistor... The wire on the opposite side of the resistor is the coil wire that runs from the resistor to the starter relay and then to the coil...

Edit: taking another look at the diagram I see that the negative wire from the coil goes directly to the ICM so I can see how the pickup would be directly tied in with the coil!
Please be patient with me people! I've already said it before that I don't know much about electrical and this is how I learn...
Sorry, not trying to be difficult it's just if I don't understand how these things work and go together it just frustrates the hell out of me!

Last edited by B300 VanDanage; 06/15/24 04:23 PM.
Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3238653
06/15/24 02:49 PM
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If the distributor is shorted you won't get any signal to the control module and that means no signal to the coil... Throwing parts at this willy nilly isn't going to fix it.

Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: stumpy] #3238661
06/15/24 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by stumpy
If the distributor is shorted you won't get any signal to the control module and that means no signal to the coil... Throwing parts at this willy nilly isn't going to fix it.


Throwing parts at it is definitely NOT what I'm trying to do!!! I'm trying to figure out what's wrong, what's the cause and how to fix it!

Let me explain...
I don't know much about electrical and it's hard for me to understand what you guys are talking about sometimes... You guys understand how these components work and are tied in together... I don't!
I just figured out in the past hour how the pickup and coil are connected and that's through the ICM which I didn't see before so now I understand how the bad wires on the pickup can affect the coil from not producing voltage to the distributor!

Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3238663
06/15/24 04:33 PM
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While I wait for the new pickup I'm going to take the one out of the old distributor and install it in the present one and see if that fixes anything...
I still don't understand why 12 volts is coming out of the resistor to the coil though...

Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3238687
06/15/24 08:52 PM
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Ok guys....
I figured it out! boogie penguin
It wasn't the pickup! It wasn't a short or bad ground! Not the bulkhead etc...

I like to save all my old parts so I installed the old pickup and it did nothing and at that moment I knew that wasn't the problem and the common denominator in all of this has been the ICM so I swapped that out with the original one and the van fired right up! I even installed the original coil that I thought had burnt out and it's actually still good!
The numbers are all back to normal! I'm assuming they're normal but anyways here are the numbers I'm getting now...
The positive side of the coil is getting 5.6 volts with the key ON and the battery is reading between 13.0 - 14.0 volts from idle to full acceleration!
Swapping the ICM took care of the 'overcharging' issue that started months ago! So this whole time all of the issues with the van were being caused by a failing Ignition Control Module!!!!!

Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: stumpy] #3238688
06/15/24 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by stumpy
If the distributor is shorted you won't get any signal to the control module and that means no signal to the coil... Throwing parts at this willy nilly isn't going to fix it.

You see... Sometimes throwing parts at the issue does fix it! At least it did in this case... grin

Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3238690
06/15/24 09:07 PM
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Glad to see you got it running. Keeping our fingers crossed for you. up

Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: stumpy] #3238719
06/15/24 10:59 PM
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If you did not change the wires going through the distributer to the pickup coil, you will probably be back in a couple months with the same old story.

Good luck.

Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: B300 VanDanage] #3238797
06/16/24 12:24 PM
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happy to hear you got it back running !
electrical issues, especially ones that have my brain in overload "circuitry", have contributed to the "shinyness" on the top of my head that some of my so called friends chuckle at. biggrin
please don't get too upset, but it took me many years to finally gain the courage to bull into the electrical side of this "fun with cars" thing, and although i now have success, it can still get one's goat when something crop's up that is a [censored] to figure out.
just keep after it, and success will be yours as well, as hopefully, you have finally figured out your problem.
beer

Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: poorboy] #3238807
06/16/24 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by poorboy
If you did not change the wires going through the distributer to the pickup coil, you will probably be back in a couple months with the same old story.

Good luck.


The style magnetic pickup that goes into the distributor in my make and model is made with the wires attached! I can't swap the pickup without swapping the wires also.... The wires are not separate of the pickup and here's a picture of it! I also wrote that I swapped that unit out with an old pickup I had but you must've missed that part... i also mentioned that I ordered another and it's on the way but you must've missed that too...

Screenshot_20240616-095036.png
Re: Cranks but doesn't fire! [Re: moparx] #3238812
06/16/24 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by moparx
happy to hear you got it back running !
electrical issues, especially ones that have my brain in overload "circuitry", have contributed to the "shinyness" on the top of my head that some of my so called friends chuckle at. biggrin
please don't get too upset, but it took me many years to finally gain the courage to bull into the electrical side of this "fun with cars" thing, and although i now have success, it can still get one's goat when something crop's up that is a [censored] to figure out.
just keep after it, and success will be yours as well, as hopefully, you have finally figured out your problem.
beer


Thanks! Yeah I've definitely lost some hair since I started working on the overheating issue that started months ago! Going through the bulkhead multiple times, following circuits, cleaning connections and grounds etc... I had to disassemble the steering column a few times also and in the end it was simply the ICM! That's how it goes sometimes but it wasn't all for nothing! I'm alot more familiar with my van's electrical system now and I know that most of those connections and grounds are clean and making good contact!
Oh! The ammeter also started working which it didn't before so...
I still have a ways to go to fully understand how this stuff works and I'm sure I'll be back!
I'm glad you guys are here to help!

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