F1 Vegas water valve cover failure
#3191605
11/17/23 01:56 PM
11/17/23 01:56 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,722 Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
|
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,722
Bitopia
|
Based on what pics I have seen this am, the concrete was not the cause of this entire incident that is now being reported. The pictures I have seen the cracking and loss of concrete on one side of the valve only indicates to me a car passed over the slightly raised cover and caused the damage to the concrete with that impact with these three cars. It may have simply been an unsecured or improperly secured iron valve cover, which might have been slightly lifted by some previous car, by under body suction and/or skid plate contact. A screw up nevertheless.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
|
|
|
Re: F1 Vegas water valve cover failure
[Re: topside]
#3191614
11/17/23 02:32 PM
11/17/23 02:32 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,591 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
|
"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,591
north of coder
|
there is a manhole cover in front of my house, which is on a curve. one time a truck "tiddlewinked" that cover into my yard ! luckily, i heard it and called it in, then directed traffic until the city came around and put it back. that would have been fun if a car decided to drive a wheel into that hole.
|
|
|
Re: F1 Vegas water valve cover failure
[Re: topside]
#3191766
11/18/23 12:38 PM
11/18/23 12:38 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,115 Usa
A39Coronet
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,115
Usa
|
Typically on street courses, the metal covers are welded in pre-practice; ground-effects cars suck them up otherwise. Kind of a rookie error by whoever was prepping the track surface. Manhole cover was bolted down. The housing itself lifted along with the road surface. Some of the smartest minds in the world work in F1, I'm guessing this was a highly unforseen issue. I don't see the logic in docking Ferrari the ten grid spots for a chassis change considering it was a new facility issue outside of their own control.
|
|
|
Re: F1 Vegas water valve cover failure
[Re: theraif]
#3191783
11/18/23 01:16 PM
11/18/23 01:16 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,527 Tulsa, Oklahoma
340Cuda
master
|
master
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,527
Tulsa, Oklahoma
|
most headlines i saw said it was a dumpster fire of a race I thought the race started today (Saturday 11/18 )at 10:00 PM local time. Still might be a dumpster fire...
|
|
|
Re: F1 Vegas water valve cover failure
[Re: A39Coronet]
#3191889
11/18/23 08:28 PM
11/18/23 08:28 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,722 Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
|
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,722
Bitopia
|
Typically on street courses, the metal covers are welded in pre-practice; ground-effects cars suck them up otherwise. Kind of a rookie error by whoever was prepping the track surface. Manhole cover was bolted down. The housing itself lifted along with the road surface. Some of the smartest minds in the world work in F1, I'm guessing this was a highly unforseen issue. I don't see the logic in docking Ferrari the ten grid spots for a chassis change considering it was a new facility issue outside of their own control. How did a manhole cover lift itself?
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
|
|
|
Re: F1 Vegas water valve cover failure
[Re: A12]
#3191891
11/18/23 08:33 PM
11/18/23 08:33 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,722 Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
|
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,722
Bitopia
|
Bolted down AND paved over Paved over you say? How did they then so quickly determine for P2 all the over "paved over" covers were secure after only destroying three multi-million-dollar cars? Other than claims here, I haven't seen anything to confirm they were supposed to be bolted down and/or paved over. The earliest pic post-accident of the cover area doesn't indicate any obvious bolting or shattered pavement that would have covered the cover, IMO. Seems welding has been an adequate decade plus proven solution.
Last edited by jcc; 11/18/23 08:36 PM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
|
|
|
Re: F1 Vegas water valve cover failure
[Re: jcc]
#3191921
11/19/23 12:16 AM
11/19/23 12:16 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,540 N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,540
N.E. OHIO, USA
|
Bolted down AND paved over Paved over you say? How did they then so quickly determine for P2 all the over "paved over" covers were secure after only destroying three multi-million-dollar cars? Other than claims here, I haven't seen anything to confirm they were supposed to be bolted down and/or paved over. The earliest pic post-accident of the cover area doesn't indicate any obvious bolting or shattered pavement that would have covered the cover, IMO. Seems welding has been an adequate decade plus proven solution. Apparently the broadcast announcers thought that was what was done as this was the required safety method of doing this at street tracks like Monaco, etc., They remove the covers and fill them with sand and then pave them closed with asphalt. The downforce "suction" from an F1 car doing over 200 mph apparently is enough to suck a smaller cover up enough to contact the underside or lift it enough for the next car to really hit it. Also is wasn't a large "manhole" cover but a smaller water valve shutoff cover. “This has happened on occasion at other tracks at other races around the world. The precautionary step of removing all of the water valve covers on the entire track and filling them with sand and asphalt was undertaken. The entire process, from determination of the issue to remediation, took approximately five hours.
|
|
|
Re: F1 Vegas water valve cover failure
[Re: jcc]
#3192356
11/21/23 07:33 AM
11/21/23 07:33 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,115 Usa
A39Coronet
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,115
Usa
|
Typically on street courses, the metal covers are welded in pre-practice; ground-effects cars suck them up otherwise. Kind of a rookie error by whoever was prepping the track surface. Manhole cover was bolted down. The housing itself lifted along with the road surface. Some of the smartest minds in the world work in F1, I'm guessing this was a highly unforseen issue. I don't see the logic in docking Ferrari the ten grid spots for a chassis change considering it was a new facility issue outside of their own control. How did a manhole cover lift itself? The ground effects on the cars are the primary method of down force. Air entering under the car goes through a Venturi effect as the space expands towards the rear, creating a tremendous area of low pressure holding the car down/pulling things up.
|
|
|
Re: F1 Vegas water valve cover failure
[Re: 360view]
#3192371
11/21/23 09:42 AM
11/21/23 09:42 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,722 Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
|
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,722
Bitopia
|
Hypothetically, if the cover was 8" Dia, and a perfect vacuum was present, up to approx 360lbs of uplift could be present, for a metal cover that may weigh 25? pounds.
I question that any "kick up" forces were present by contact with a tire. Now if an item run over had a compressive/rebound response to tire contact, I might consider it, but a nearly solid rigid metal cover meant for decades of heavy traffic is not flexible nor compressible in this case, its geometric design does not lend itself to becoming dislodged by lateral forces. If the tire runs directly over the cover, a cars floor ground effects are much lesser at play at the edges away from, the tunnel. How much drop in barometric pressure exists directly behind a rotating tire at speed is unknown, as is the tire's rubber "stickiness" in the rather cold conditions.
My takeaway so far is the cover was simply not secured, and likely very obvious to first responder track crew in the minutes following the incident, and why they quickly checked the rest of the circuit, and a mistake a multi-billion dollar operation is not quick to admit as it's a huge PR fiasco.
I suspect in the future a program will be implemented that street removeable covers on race circuits will be paint marked after verification they have been properly secured, like the paint marks on critical fasteners on cars/semi's etc.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
|
|
|
Re: F1 Vegas water valve cover failure
[Re: 340Cuda]
#3192392
11/21/23 11:45 AM
11/21/23 11:45 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,527 Tulsa, Oklahoma
340Cuda
master
|
master
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,527
Tulsa, Oklahoma
|
most headlines i saw said it was a dumpster fire of a race I thought the race started today (Saturday 11/18 )at 10:00 PM local time. Still might be a dumpster fire... Actually, according to an article in the Wall Street Journal the race went well and Max Verstappen, the winner, who was so critical at first, said it was a good race and he was looking forward to coming back next year.
|
|
|
Re: F1 Vegas water valve cover failure
[Re: 340Cuda]
#3192416
11/21/23 01:40 PM
11/21/23 01:40 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,540 N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,540
N.E. OHIO, USA
|
most headlines i saw said it was a dumpster fire of a race I thought the race started today (Saturday 11/18 )at 10:00 PM local time. Still might be a dumpster fire... Actually, according to an article in the Wall Street Journal the race went well and Max Verstappen, the winner, who was so critical at first, said it was a good race and he was looking forward to coming back next year. I watched the race and thought this might really turn out to be a bust and boring. I've watched just about every F1 race for the past two or more decades and rarely miss one, even attended the first F1 at Indy. So when the lights went out and Verstappen jumped into the lead I thought goodnight the will be another boring, no passing Max runaway and it wasn't. They said the race had the most passing of all of the '23 events this year, which is unusual for current era F1 and even though it was a street course it is the second longest course on the calendar. Don't know how many manhole and water valve covers are on the second longest course but too bad they missed one, Oh I think Max and a few other drivers and team didn't enjoy the pre-race (week) circus and activities and the start and time of the race, practice, and qualifying. Only one thing better would have been to have a Mercedes on the podium. Even better would have been to have American F1 driver Logan Sargeant on the top of the step and the two (American team) Haas cars on each side of him on the podium.
|
|
|
Re: F1 Vegas water valve cover failure
[Re: A39Coronet]
#3192468
11/21/23 05:18 PM
11/21/23 05:18 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 916 Unfortunately back in New York
Nukechargerboy
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 916
Unfortunately back in New York
|
Typically on street courses, the metal covers are welded in pre-practice; ground-effects cars suck them up otherwise. Kind of a rookie error by whoever was prepping the track surface. Manhole cover was bolted down. The housing itself lifted along with the road surface. Some of the smartest minds in the world work in F1, I'm guessing this was a highly unforseen issue. I don't see the logic in docking Ferrari the ten grid spots for a chassis change considering it was a new facility issue outside of their own control. How did a manhole cover lift itself? The ground effects on the cars are the primary method of down force. Air entering under the car goes through a Venturi effect as the space expands towards the rear, creating a tremendous area of low pressure holding the car down/pulling things up. I once saw a New York City garbage truck hit a manhole cover with the snowplow. Flipped it over and it landed upside down on the manhole.
|
|
|
|
|