Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop. SOME UPDATES
[Re: 68LAR]
#3172211
09/01/23 10:54 PM
09/01/23 10:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,377 Omaha Ne
TJP
OP
I Live Here
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OP
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I think there is WAY WAY too much time trying to make the linkage "perfect" when that is not the cause of the chatter issue at all. I have seen some really misaligned linkage before work perfectly my car included. It's inside the bellhousing, the flywheel, the plate or the disc is the issue here. Get the flywheel surfaced by a good machine shop then make sure the disc is not warped with a dial indicator and some type of lathe and a dial indicator. As for solid motor mounts or motor plate if your stuff is balanced right there will be no severe vibration issues. Mine is smooth and I have gotten compliments on how smooth and quiet it is. Been running a motor plate and a poly transmission mount since I built my car about 30 years ago. The only clutch that chattered for me was a Ram sintered bronze 6 puck disc and a Hays race adjustable plate. You have to start measuring from the crank flange then the flywheel to make sure you don't stack tolerances. Something is warped or bent somewhere. Gus I agree with all this except the tranny mount. None of what had been mentioned here will cause chatter. Dirty flywheel, pressure plate or type of disc material could and will cause chatter. One end of the z bar holds the nylon bearings in place. The other side slides free to compensate for engine torq. This doesn’t have to be perfect. That’s what the nylon bearings and the ball fittings compensate for. The other stuff mentioned will certainly help with drivability, but not cause chatter. Gus and I have been doing this for many years. Lots of experience between us. Just sayin’. thanks for the input from both Please read the previous posts by me on this issue. Page 1 and 2 are good for a start When the alignment is off to the point it is grooving the pivot studs it needs to be corrected. Yes I could slap it together as the previous shops did and shove it out the door but my conscience won't allow it. I would love to find the root cause of the alignment issue but the owners budget doesn't allow it. if it were not for the lateral misalignment shimming the L mount would get by. But then we'll also have a head pipe too close to the torsion bar. What I'm doing is not correct but easily reversible when his budget allows and will alleviate the alignment issue for now. At 69 YO I've been around the block a time or two. Couple that with 25 years of engineering, 25 years of owning a classic car resto /repair shop and 56 years of busting knuckles. I am not trying to be rude or offensive but rather fill in some of the information you must have not had. Thanks again fo r your input and trying to help I will keep all posted
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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop. SOME UPDATES
[Re: TJP]
#3172467
09/02/23 10:35 PM
09/02/23 10:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,377 Omaha Ne
TJP
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
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Omaha Ne
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I made a dummy shaft out of 1" plastic rod boring both ends to fit the OD of the pivot balls. This allowed me to install an the mounts and shaft much easier and better see the misalignment. After trying several different things to no avail, there was a new BH mount in the parts box that came in with the car. I installed it with the dummy shaft. I proceeded to cut one of the braces closest to the pivot stud on the back of the mount. Removing a bit of material from the brace allowed me to tweak the Pivot position enough to where the dummy shaft slips all the way back and forth with no binding. I'll weld it up tomorrow and continue with the remaining assembly. What a PITA. Thanks again to all for the support and I am praying that the issue is history. Will follow up once running and the clutch is tested
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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop. SOME UPDATES
[Re: TJP]
#3172620
09/03/23 04:32 PM
09/03/23 04:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,555 Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart
Rhinotruck
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Rhinotruck
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,555
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
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I made a dummy shaft out of 1" plastic rod boring both ends to fit the OD of the pivot balls. This allowed me to install an the mounts and shaft much easier and better see the misalignment. After trying several different things to no avail, there was a new BH mount in the parts box that came in with the car. I installed it with the dummy shaft. I proceeded to cut one of the braces closest to the pivot stud on the back of the mount. Removing a bit of material from the brace allowed me to tweak the Pivot position enough to where the dummy shaft slips all the way back and forth with no binding. I'll weld it up tomorrow and continue with the remaining assembly. What a PITA. Thanks again to all for the support and I am praying that the issue is history. Will follow up once running and the clutch is tested Sounds like a smart way to figure it out! Hope it works this time, keep us posted!
The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.
JB Rhinehart, Realist
A-Body's RULE!
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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop. SOME UPDATES
[Re: Rhinodart]
#3172698
09/03/23 10:00 PM
09/03/23 10:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,377 Omaha Ne
TJP
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,377
Omaha Ne
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I made a dummy shaft out of 1" plastic rod boring both ends to fit the OD of the pivot balls. This allowed me to install an the mounts and shaft much easier and better see the misalignment. After trying several different things to no avail, there was a new BH mount in the parts box that came in with the car. I installed it with the dummy shaft. I proceeded to cut one of the braces closest to the pivot stud on the back of the mount. Removing a bit of material from the brace allowed me to tweak the Pivot position enough to where the dummy shaft slips all the way back and forth with no binding. I'll weld it up tomorrow and continue with the remaining assembly. What a PITA. Thanks again to all for the support and I am praying that the issue is history. Will follow up once running and the clutch is tested Sounds like a smart way to figure it out! Hope it works this time, keep us posted! After welding and painting the Z bar went right in and appears to be pretty well centered The hack job on the exhaust was another issue. Whomever thought of slotted on size fits all flanges should be castrated so they can't pass on their moronic thinking. Couple those with a 1/8" or so flanged lip for sealing, and a larger ID pipe than the manifold and one has a real challenge trying to line up the pipes and gaskets to the manifold. Finally used two different sized OD sleeves to slip over each other centering the manifold and pipe. This of course required a different gasket which had to be sourced and the hole spacing modified. I'm about ready to start drinking again
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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop.
[Re: moparx]
#3172981
09/04/23 09:51 PM
09/04/23 09:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,377 Omaha Ne
TJP
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
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Posts: 15,377
Omaha Ne
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every time my old man would see me, he would look and say : "he,he,he.........i got hair and you don't.........he, he, he........." but then, he didn't work on cars [he just broke them ] and i do.............. still got any hair on the top of your head ? i don't........... LOL yes as a matter of fact I do have a full head of hair although lately I've seen more in the shower👀😂 However, I finally got to do a test drive today and all was NORMAL, WOW!!! 💥🚀🧨🎉🎇🎯🤸♂️🤸♂️🤸♂️imagine that. My prayers were heard 🙏🙏 I do want to thank all that contributed and offered help while reading my findings. The ROOT cause? Don't know But I'm going to guess that the bolded portion of RudeRunners post below was the culprit. Before removing the flywheel, I'd like to check the runout of the face. Indicator base on the block, needle on the face. That dark spot looks about 180 from where the grinding marks are visible. Like the flywheel wobbles. Be a good idea to check that on the new flywheel too. Who knows if the crank flange is bent. Unlikely but not impossible. Bellhousing concentricty is important too. There may be multiple little things adding up. Thanks again to ALL
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Re: RESOLVED!!, SEVERE Clutch Chatter from a stop.
[Re: moparx]
#3173187
09/05/23 06:05 PM
09/05/23 06:05 PM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,830 ohio
ruderunner
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,830
ohio
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Bubba has nothing on farmers, I've fixed more than my share if their fixes.
Angry white pureblood male
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Re: RESOLVED!!, SEVERE Clutch Chatter from a stop.
[Re: ruderunner]
#3173226
09/05/23 09:53 PM
09/05/23 09:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,377 Omaha Ne
TJP
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
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Omaha Ne
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Bubba has nothing on farmers, I've fixed more than my share if their fixes. he does have a liking for their daughters said just like them cow and pigs the bigger the better ( bring more at auction and BEER) LMAO You BTW pretty much nailed it with you earlier post several days back so and
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Re: RESOLVED!!, SEVERE Clutch Chatter from a stop.
[Re: TJP]
#3173228
09/05/23 10:14 PM
09/05/23 10:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,555 Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart
Rhinotruck
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Rhinotruck
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,555
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
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Freaking awesome! I almost want to put one of my 4-speed cars together one of these days...LOL..
The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.
JB Rhinehart, Realist
A-Body's RULE!
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Re: RESOLVED!!, SEVERE Clutch Chatter from a stop.
[Re: Rhinodart]
#3173299
09/06/23 10:36 AM
09/06/23 10:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667 Los Osos, Ca
CKessel
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667
Los Osos, Ca
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I'm amazed at the stack up of small issues that led to the huge one you dealt with and conquered. I hope the car owner is singing your praises loudly and not whining about how much it cost only.
Carl Kessel
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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop. SOME UPDATES
[Re: TJP]
#3173329
09/06/23 12:36 PM
09/06/23 12:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
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I made a dummy shaft out of 1" plastic rod boring both ends to fit the OD of the pivot balls. This allowed me to install an the mounts and shaft much easier and better see the misalignment. After trying several different things to no avail, there was a new BH mount in the parts box that came in with the car. I installed it with the dummy shaft. I proceeded to cut one of the braces closest to the pivot stud on the back of the mount. Removing a bit of material from the brace allowed me to tweak the Pivot position enough to where the dummy shaft slips all the way back and forth with no binding. I'll weld it up tomorrow and continue with the remaining assembly. What a PITA. Thanks again to all for the support and I am praying that the issue is history. Will follow up once running and the clutch is tested Sounds like a smart way to figure it out! Hope it works this time, keep us posted! After welding and painting the Z bar went right in and appears to be pretty well centered The hack job on the exhaust was another issue. Whomever thought of slotted on size fits all flanges should be castrated so they can't pass on their moronic thinking. Couple those with a 1/8" or so flanged lip for sealing, and a larger ID pipe than the manifold and one has a real challenge trying to line up the pipes and gaskets to the manifold. Finally used two different sized OD sleeves to slip over each other centering the manifold and pipe. This of course required a different gasket which had to be sourced and the hole spacing modified. I'm about ready to start drinking again Did you snap a picture of the modified bracket ? Good work getting it back to working properly.
running up my post count some more .
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Re: RESOLVED!!, SEVERE Clutch Chatter from a stop.
[Re: CKessel]
#3173398
09/06/23 04:19 PM
09/06/23 04:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,377 Omaha Ne
TJP
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
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Posts: 15,377
Omaha Ne
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I'm amazed at the stack up of small issues that led to the huge one you dealt with and conquered. I hope the car owner is singing your praises loudly and not whining about how much it cost only. he's definitely happy but whimpering as usual. By the log sheet I have racked up over 100 hours in this mess. That time includes the analyzing, research etc. I'll lose my backside but it's done, as right as the budget would tolerate, and likely the last one for awhile. If I hit him full bore with parts and the little that's left to do it'd be close to 15K. Hard to swallow for a chattering clutch problem. So, what does one do? take what they can afford and eat the rest. BTW I'm going on a diet LOL 🤣😂
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Re: RESOLVED!!, SEVERE Clutch Chatter from a stop.
[Re: Rhinodart]
#3173399
09/06/23 04:20 PM
09/06/23 04:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,377 Omaha Ne
TJP
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,377
Omaha Ne
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Freaking awesome! I almost want to put one of my 4-speed cars together one of these days...LOL.. 4 speeds are FUN!!!!!
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Re: RESOLVED!!, SEVERE Clutch Chatter from a stop.
[Re: TJP]
#3173417
09/06/23 05:34 PM
09/06/23 05:34 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,262 nowhere
Sniper
master
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master
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,262
nowhere
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If I hit him full bore with parts and the little that's left to do it'd be close to 15K.
This is why I learned to do it myself. I won't begrudge a man what he's earned, but conversely I couldn't afford to pay the man with the knowledge either. So I "invested" in learning how to do it myself. Sometimes that was more expensive than letting the man do it, lol. Something I learned after the fact.
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Re: RESOLVED!!, SEVERE Clutch Chatter from a stop.
[Re: CKessel]
#3173447
09/06/23 07:44 PM
09/06/23 07:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,830 ohio
ruderunner
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,830
ohio
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I'm amazed at the stack up of small issues that led to the huge one you dealt with and conquered. I hope the car owner is singing your praises loudly and not whining about how much it cost only. In this case, surrender there were a few small things but, after seeing the flywheel pictures I'd say that was 95 percent of the problem. A thousandth or so at the flange becomes pretty significant at the pressure plate bolts. I didn't expect rest buildup but the possibility that the crank might have been dropped at some point.
Angry white pureblood male
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Re: RESOLVED!!, SEVERE Clutch Chatter from a stop.
[Re: Sniper]
#3173485
09/06/23 10:11 PM
09/06/23 10:11 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,214 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,214
Someplace you aren't
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If I hit him full bore with parts and the little that's left to do it'd be close to 15K.
This is why I learned to do it myself. I won't begrudge a man what he's earned, but conversely I couldn't afford to pay the man with the knowledge either. So I "invested" in learning how to do it myself. Sometimes that was more expensive than letting the man do it, lol. Something I learned after the fact. Yep no way I’d have been able to stay in the hobby paying others for most of this stuff. I’ve come to accept I can afford to redo it if I screw it up, maybe buy parts I didn’t need to to begin with, etc and still be ahead of paying a shop. Tools I don’t even flinch at buying and my hobby has always led to me having tools I use in the house. I don’t think I’d want to be doing this for a hundred an hour anyway.
I want my fair share
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