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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: B1duster]
#3164225
07/30/23 06:52 AM
07/30/23 06:52 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
clovis
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
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Thanks for the link. I definitely have the idler gears too far in, so I will do the cover depth install method and check again.
'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: clovis]
#3164288
07/30/23 12:06 PM
07/30/23 12:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,913
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,913
Bend,OR USA
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I was reading the instructions for the summit brand set and it said the idler gear (small gear) should have .005-.0075 vertical movement. Measuring as shown in the picture the lash is virtually nil and there is no vertical movement. That is measuring horizontal clearances, not vertical. Vertical is up and down in reference to the ground  Put the indicator on the retaining bar and lift them, it, up to measure those clearances  
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3164401
07/30/23 09:08 PM
07/30/23 09:08 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
clovis
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
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https://youtube.com/shorts/WFM0HvpDzRE?feature=sharePulled the idler out aligned the dots again got the idler started then slide the cover on, then off Checked the clearance to the block +.010 Rolled it over a few times to check the dots Then mounted the indicator After that sequence the idler (right) side had obvious movement. The quick measurement although at a slight angle seems to give me .008. I was surprised how far back the cover pushed the idler back and how incredibly difficult it is to get the idler gear installed. It rolls over very nicely. I may try to put the rockers on tomorrow and see if that changes anything.
'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: clovis]
#3166550
08/08/23 12:51 PM
08/08/23 12:51 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
clovis
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
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Finally got around to putting the rockers back on (one side). Started rolling it over and it bound again, pulled the cover, and the big idler gear is hung solid. I removed the rockers and it rolled over easily. My conclusion is that the spring tension is pushing the cam down causing it to bind. The gear is coming off and the chain is going on, but I am curious if there is another problem that needs to be addressed before moving forward. I have thought about putting a dial indicator on the bottom of the cam and checking it before and after installing the rocker arms. I'm not even sure what an acceptable amount of play would be.
'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: rickraw]
#3166608
08/08/23 04:11 PM
08/08/23 04:11 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
clovis
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
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The gear drive was on the motor when I bought it, so my plan was just to use it so there is no bend on my end to use one. I have a Cloyes billet set that was on my other motor that I will likely re-cycle.
'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: clovis]
#3166661
08/08/23 07:55 PM
08/08/23 07:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,821
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,821
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
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Finally got around to putting the rockers back on (one side). Started rolling it over and it bound again, pulled the cover, and the big idler gear is hung solid. I removed the rockers and it rolled over easily. My conclusion is that the spring tension is pushing the cam down causing it to bind. The gear is coming off and the chain is going on, but I am curious if there is another problem that needs to be addressed before moving forward. I have thought about putting a dial indicator on the bottom of the cam and checking it before and after installing the rocker arms. I'm not even sure what an acceptable amount of play would be. I wouldn't be surprised if it binds up with a chain also. I suspect a clearance issue. Either Valve to piston, retainer to guide, or coil bind. Another thought: Since you cant turn it over with the rockers on it you could not have adjusted the valves yet. Maybe the adjusting screws are turned way in or the pushrods are too long and causing any or all of the above clearance issues.
Last edited by GomangoCuda; 08/08/23 08:10 PM.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: clovis]
#3166687
08/08/23 10:08 PM
08/08/23 10:08 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,035
NY
B1duster
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,035
NY
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Finally got around to putting the rockers back on (one side). Started rolling it over and it bound again, pulled the cover, and the big idler gear is hung solid. I removed the rockers and it rolled over easily. My conclusion is that the spring tension is pushing the cam down causing it to bind. The gear is coming off and the chain is going on, but I am curious if there is another problem that needs to be addressed before moving forward. I have thought about putting a dial indicator on the bottom of the cam and checking it before and after installing the rocker arms. I'm not even sure what an acceptable amount of play would be. That don’t sound right, unless your cam bearings are wiped out. Was it a running motor when you got it ? All the same parts being used ? Can you see if you have clearance between the idler gears and the block ?
Last edited by B1duster; 08/08/23 10:39 PM.
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: B1duster]
#3166741
08/09/23 07:31 AM
08/09/23 07:31 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
clovis
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
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If i had not been to the point where I was pre-lubing the engine, I could see the possibility of a clearance issue but I have had the rockers on it, lash set and had everything oiling except the driver side rocker shaft when it bound up the first time, so i had rolled the motor over several times. I have plenty of P2V, retainer clearance and am about .090 off of coil bind. The binding is random, but both times it has done it, it was with valve spring pressure on it, otherwise it is butter smooth.
I have about .010 between the block and idler.
'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: clovis]
#3166771
08/09/23 09:45 AM
08/09/23 09:45 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,035
NY
B1duster
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,035
NY
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Pry the idlers out away from the block .060 and see if it spins over.
Or, any chance you mixed up R&L rocker assemblies after you adjusted valves ?
Last edited by B1duster; 08/09/23 09:53 AM.
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: B1duster]
#3166777
08/09/23 10:07 AM
08/09/23 10:07 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
clovis
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
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The trouble moving the idler out .060 is that it cannot stay there as when you put the cover on it will move it back.
I mark all my rocker arms, spacers and hold downs, once I get my clearances to where I want them.
'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: B1duster]
#3166799
08/09/23 11:44 AM
08/09/23 11:44 AM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 730
Central TEXAS!!!!
sr4440
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 730
Central TEXAS!!!!
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I have one of these installed on my B1 engine for the last 15 years. On mine the axle of the big gear hits the block (I had to shorten it to get the proper alignment), the other end is about .010 off of the timing cover, this is what keeps the idler gears square to the cam and crank gears. If the idler gears can move back and forth, they can also twist and bind.
Last edited by sr4440; 08/09/23 11:48 AM.
Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: sr4440]
#3166840
08/09/23 01:45 PM
08/09/23 01:45 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,556
PA
moparacer
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,556
PA
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Why not just bite the bullet and get a milodon gear drive if you still want a gear drive. Throw the pj in the trash then enjoy your car. This.  If you want reliable rock solid cam timing put a Milodon on it and forget it. Would be quieter too.
67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 5.44-126
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: moparacer]
#3167180
08/10/23 08:53 PM
08/10/23 08:53 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
clovis
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
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Put the chain on tonight, and sure enough lots of slack. I pulled it off and measured the crank to cam distance and got 5.1425, so .0095 short. Cloyes sell a -.010 chain, so got one on the way.
'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: clovis]
#3167292
08/11/23 02:25 PM
08/11/23 02:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,114
Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,114
Irving, TX
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Bit of a line bore, eh?
I ran a PJ drive on the hot rod for ages. Never had any problems. The car and engine are in England now and it's still going as far as I know.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: feets]
#3169092
08/19/23 07:33 PM
08/19/23 07:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
clovis
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 565
Kentucky
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Got the new chain in and it fits perfect. Rolled it over a few times put the driver side rockers on and started to roll it over. It got to where number 5 was almost fully open then it got crazy hard to turnover so I stopped. I loosened the rockers and it rolled over fine. I put my check springs on #1 to confirm my piston to valve and there was plenty so is the difficulty in rolling it over just simply spring pressure. I am using a short handle ratchet and sitting it in front of it, so not a ton of leverage.
I also checked my coil bind and valve seal clearance both are good.
'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Gear drive binding
[Re: clovis]
#3169133
08/20/23 03:30 AM
08/20/23 03:30 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,913
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,913
Bend,OR USA
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Last edited by Cab_Burge; 08/20/23 03:51 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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