Re: 70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#3165233
08/03/23 01:33 AM
08/03/23 01:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,360 Planet Earth
RoadRunnerLuva
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,360
Planet Earth
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Extremely nice. I would expect it reach $180k, maybe more. Would you pay up that much for a restamped block? Not me! Did you read my post? Did you notice I responded before Barry stated it’s a restamp? I would still expect it to fetch serious money. Yeah I read your post. My question still stands, as it did THE FIRST TIME... would YOU, buy that car with a restamped engine block for your estimated price of $180k. If someone coughs up "serious money"... without doing due diligence, then they deserve to get bent over.
Plymouth Makes It!
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Re: 70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#3165273
08/03/23 10:19 AM
08/03/23 10:19 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,502 Michigan
oldjonny
Don't argue with me.
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Don't argue with me.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,502
Michigan
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There are lots of people with too much money that will never investigate anything. Just watch a Mecum or Barrett-Jackson auction. Lots of guys with alcohol and egos larger than life with too much money. I really have grown to detest BaT for what they have turned into.
Never, ever argue with an IDIOT. They will drag you to their level and then beat you with their years of experience
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Re: 70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT
[Re: wmdj5]
#3165305
08/03/23 01:52 PM
08/03/23 01:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9,600 Super Spudsville
Mr PotatoHead
Half Baked
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Half Baked
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9,600
Super Spudsville
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It makes me really question anything from Govier or Wise or any other know it all. Yea pretty funny isnt it? We see how the experts in many fields are doing these days but yet folks cant shake them dam rose colored mopar glasses off there head. Remember its not the corvette guy or the ford guy selling a mopar part at a swap meet causing most issues in the hobby..... its internal. Has been for a long time. What I would like to know, is who is this jack A$$ Top_Shelf_cars ?
He states "body, engine, and transmission stampings were made with a Gang stamp made up of individual digits and numbers" just as described in this thread.
But then tries to rationalize why the block stamping looks like it was done by a drunken 3-year-old, in the wrong font.
Who is this A$$ hat trying to protect?
Is he an old block stamper from way back trying to legitimize his handiwork?
It makes me really question anything from Govier or Wise or any other know it all.
I apologize in advance for any offence that may be taken.
STOP POTATO HATE!
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Re: 70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT
[Re: Mr PotatoHead]
#3165321
08/03/23 02:29 PM
08/03/23 02:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,970 A collage of whims
topside
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,970
A collage of whims
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Well, what a highly-coveted car is worth, and what someone will pay, are often enough 2 different things, right ? And the more money and rarer car that's involved will bring out the fudging, if not outright falsification. Lots of Hemis were damaged or destroyed, just like Chevy Rat motors or FI small-blocks, and some Chevy guys have been re-stamping blocks for decades. Hemi cars were inevitably going to catch up on that. Big Money eventually brings this into pretty much everything. I've heard Steve Davis at a B-J auction 1st-hand tell a nationwide audience that a particular Hemi car was #-s matching, when I know every inch of that car and it is definitely not. He claimed their "expert" issued that report after vetting the car. What's odd is that even though my name & info is in the car's file, nobody has ever contacted me about the car. Whether that paperwork was removed, or nobody cares, or they don't want to verify, or have their bubble burst, I don't know. Seems that some folks will pay up for bragging rights, knowing that nobody at the car show is gonna slide under the car and check #s. While a non-#s engine relieves some worry about breakage, to me, the intent to deceive is discomforting (at the least), and can be indicative of larger issues or falsification.
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Re: 70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT
[Re: wmdj5]
#3165336
08/03/23 03:18 PM
08/03/23 03:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,086 Strathroy, Ontario
BS27R1B
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,086
Strathroy, Ontario
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Right here fellow enthusiast. No need to call names. Owned enough of these cars and advised enough people regarding them, that I have no need to justify my words to you.
Last edited by BS27R1B; 08/03/23 07:55 PM.
'.. it was long ago and it was far away, and it was so much better than it is today..' Jim Steinman
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Re: 70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#3165374
08/03/23 05:41 PM
08/03/23 05:41 PM
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Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9,600 Super Spudsville
Mr PotatoHead
Half Baked
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Half Baked
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9,600
Super Spudsville
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Considering the current state of everything..... who would expect this be anything close to "normal"? Current bid $177,500. The market dictates value.
STOP POTATO HATE!
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Re: 70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#3165519
08/04/23 09:44 AM
08/04/23 09:44 AM
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Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9,600 Super Spudsville
Mr PotatoHead
Half Baked
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Half Baked
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9,600
Super Spudsville
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I always thought door stickers were done perfectly on a machine until this one.
A online sales add, nothing special but the odd door tag has stuck in my head for years. One would think it would be hard to mess this up.
STOP POTATO HATE!
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Re: 70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT
[Re: BS27R1B]
#3165522
08/04/23 10:07 AM
08/04/23 10:07 AM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,683 The Historic Hudson Valley
MONC
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,683
The Historic Hudson Valley
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Right here fellow enthusiast. No need to call names. Owned enough of these cars and advised enough people regarding them, that I have no need to justify my words to you. Thanks for replying Rick. Respectfully, can you explain how the font changed from when the transmission got stamped to when the engine got stamped? From my understanding, they get stamped at the same time. In addition, the spacing is not the same, you'd at least expect similar spacing if the '1' die was replaced with another looking more like a capial 'I' with the bars across the top and bottom. In addition, what is your opinion on the date code of the block being Dec 69 and the SPD in July. Historically, aren't the build date and the engine dates closer together? Typically a month or so? Thank you
Last edited by MONC; 08/04/23 10:09 AM.
Mopar Or No Car
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Re: 70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT
[Re: BS27R1B]
#3165523
08/04/23 10:12 AM
08/04/23 10:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 155 E Tennessee
wmdj5
member
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member
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 155
E Tennessee
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Right here fellow enthusiast. No need to call names. Owned enough of these cars and advised enough people regarding them, that I have no need to justify my words to you. You are exactly right, and I apologize. I was typing angry, and I should not have done that.
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Re: 70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT
[Re: MONC]
#3165590
08/04/23 03:13 PM
08/04/23 03:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,086 Strathroy, Ontario
BS27R1B
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,086
Strathroy, Ontario
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My comments pertained to the perception that a VIN stamping must be perfect or identical to authentic components. My comments on this car in no way suggested either way on this car’s stampings as to do so in a Public forum could have its consequences. As could comments suggesting some form of deception or fraud when all that person has observed is a scan of multiple scans of a photo. Some keyboard jockeys have no idea who is an owner or who is behind a car and their disposition or eagerness to challenge what has been said publicly. On a whim, they could outspend any of us in court just for the fun of it. When it comes down to it who of us could testify with 100% certainty that it was intended fraud. None of us were there the day the stampings were made.
If you read a Dave Wise report you will find a disclaimer that explains the reasoning for not claiming ‘absolutes’. It is a serious Liability issue.
I have seen this car first hand, many years ago, and at that time suggested the car was not a ‘survivor’ by any stretch. Very few of these Cudas survived completely intact and 100% original. Games are played these days enhancing ‘survivor’ cars with better used original parts. Should this be acceptable? It happens all the time.
On the whole, this Cuda is an extremely good Hemi Cuda. I have no issue with the casting and assembly dates as nothing was cast in stone on how the components we sequenced . As far as stamping being identical, what happened if a component failed prior to shipping? Was the line held up while an engine or transmission was replaced? Not likely. That vehicle would be set aside and dealt with. Would the factory ensure the stamping of the new component was identical?
Taking into account the unibody, documentation, factory options and Hemi Cuda 4 speed car, this Cuda is one I would certainly support purchasing for more than the number suggested by others here. If you need a reference for pricing please refer to the FJ5 Hemi Cuda sold at Mecum Glendale 2023. A poorly restored, unfinished, column automatic converted 1970 Cuda.
Many here may not appreciate where the Market has gone in the last few years, me included. But to think in a Market that good 1971 340 Cudas are selling at $130,000 and well above, that a real 1970 Hemi 4 speed Cuda will sell below $200,000 does not seem accurate to me.
'.. it was long ago and it was far away, and it was so much better than it is today..' Jim Steinman
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Re: 70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT
[Re: wmdj5]
#3165595
08/04/23 03:33 PM
08/04/23 03:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,086 Strathroy, Ontario
BS27R1B
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,086
Strathroy, Ontario
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Right here fellow enthusiast. No need to call names. Owned enough of these cars and advised enough people regarding them, that I have no need to justify my words to you. You are exactly right, and I apologize. I was typing angry, and I should not have done that. No worries. I have a very thick skin. I believe Dave Wise has provided stamping examples to the seller which he has posted on the BAT auction. Those photos clearly illustrate that tge stamping process was far from an exact science..
'.. it was long ago and it was far away, and it was so much better than it is today..' Jim Steinman
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Re: 70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT
[Re: BS27R1B]
#3165665
08/04/23 10:05 PM
08/04/23 10:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9,600 Super Spudsville
Mr PotatoHead
Half Baked
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Half Baked
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 9,600
Super Spudsville
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Maybe we should all start off posts with a disclaimer of some sort. Had hoped to see a comprehensive reply to the poster who asked the question that we all could of learned from VS a veiled litigation threat to someone or all who might be critical of car and voices an objective opinion and what reads as more smoke and mirrors. Safe to say all brands of the so called car hobby is jacked up in many areas and THIS is why barn find type cars with great factory stampings and tags and docs might seem high to many but there is a premium on clear cut legitimacy and well worth it. Most know BAT has been called out several times for there antics and they have let some faulty cars run through. Like many others. So the venue is not the best in many folks eyes. Gotta love it all....
STOP POTATO HATE!
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Re: 70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT
[Re: Mr PotatoHead]
#3165706
08/05/23 09:10 AM
08/05/23 09:10 AM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,683 The Historic Hudson Valley
MONC
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,683
The Historic Hudson Valley
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Thanks for your comprehensive reply Rick. The reason I created this post was for one, it's a really nice Hemi Cuda, and thought the forum would enjoy seeing it. Secondly, I wanted the opinion of those members I know are experienced in all things Mopar, from what should a Hemi car have, from body to VINs , these folks are a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate their input and feedback.
It was not my intent to disparage the car, only to provide a discussion in a forum ( that's part of what this site is about , is it not?).
Regardless, of who buys the car, in the end it's a very nice example of a 70 Hemi Cuda, and hoping the new owner is an enthusiast and will drive the car, and not let it sit, only hoping for future appreciation.
Mopar Or No Car
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