440 6pk Cam Selection Tips
#3158015
07/08/23 11:46 AM
07/08/23 11:46 AM
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Joined: May 2023
Posts: 15 Laredo, Texas
Cudatali
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Laredo, Texas
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Just wanted to pick the brain of the camshaft gurus please. I am currently building a 440 .030 over 10.5 CR and will be topping it off with some Trickflow 240 heads and the 6pk setup. Backed by a 727 and 3.55 gears or 3.23 not sure yet. The car will mainly be a street cuiser, It's got a 22-2500 stall, I would like good street manners, ease of tuning that idle AFR, broad torque range but an engine that will be respectable in the 6k+ range. I want to take advantage of the excellent trickflow airflow. I will be using a Solid Flat Tappet cam. As is my preference. I am looking for suggestions since I will be having the cam custom ground. Here's what I am thinking so far;
550 lift In/Ex 112 LSA?? I am aiming for ease of tuneability of the 6PK 230-236 @.050 duration?? Not sure if that's too much What should the overlap be? Mid 60's?? Any other spec I should be considering?
Honestly I am still learning the effects of LSA, overlap. I have read multiple articles, most apply to Chevy SBC and I have an understanding how much the cylinder head combustion chamber plays a roll in all this so the few Mopar big block info available obviously uses the wedge head design thus changing the data vs the heart shape of the TF. Or I may just be overthinking it.
I intend to use Engle to grind the cam, I have had great experience with them in the past. They usually offer great advice but it's the weekend and theyre close so I thought I would get a leg up on advice during the weekend.
Thank you
1970 Hemi Cuda 1971 Demon 340 1969 Road Runner 440 6bbl 2018 Demon 2021 Hellcat Durango 2023 Demon 170 soon!
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Re: 440 6pk Cam Selection Tips
[Re: Cudatali]
#3158026
07/08/23 01:04 PM
07/08/23 01:04 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,917 Pattison Texas
CSK
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master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,917
Pattison Texas
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Just wanted to pick the brain of the camshaft gurus please. I am currently building a 440 .030 over 10.5 CR and will be topping it off with some Trickflow 240 heads and the 6pk setup. Backed by a 727 and 3.55 gears or 3.23 not sure yet. The car will mainly be a street cuiser, It's got a 22-2500 stall, I would like good street manners, ease of tuning that idle AFR, broad torque range but an engine that will be respectable in the 6k+ range. I want to take advantage of the excellent trickflow airflow. I will be using a Solid Flat Tappet cam. As is my preference. I am looking for suggestions since I will be having the cam custom ground. Here's what I am thinking so far;
550 lift In/Ex 112 LSA?? I am aiming for ease of tuneability of the 6PK 230-236 @.050 duration?? Not sure if that's too much What should the overlap be? Mid 60's?? Any other spec I should be considering?
Honestly I am still learning the effects of LSA, overlap. I have read multiple articles, most apply to Chevy SBC and I have an understanding how much the cylinder head combustion chamber plays a roll in all this so the few Mopar big block info available obviously uses the wedge head design thus changing the data vs the heart shape of the TF. Or I may just be overthinking it.
I intend to use Engle to grind the cam, I have had great experience with them in the past. They usually offer great advice but it's the weekend and theyre close so I thought I would get a leg up on advice during the weekend.
Thank you The most important thing is Headers or manifolds, that has EVERYTHING to do with the right cam
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: 440 6pk Cam Selection Tips
[Re: CSK]
#3158027
07/08/23 01:07 PM
07/08/23 01:07 PM
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Joined: May 2023
Posts: 15 Laredo, Texas
Cudatali
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My apologies I failed to mention that, Edelbrock 6pk manifold and long tube headers
1970 Hemi Cuda 1971 Demon 340 1969 Road Runner 440 6bbl 2018 Demon 2021 Hellcat Durango 2023 Demon 170 soon!
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Re: 440 6pk Cam Selection Tips
[Re: Cudatali]
#3158028
07/08/23 01:15 PM
07/08/23 01:15 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,917 Pattison Texas
CSK
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master
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Pattison Texas
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My apologies I failed to mention that, Edelbrock 6pk manifold and long tube headers Call Mr Porter & have him get you a cam, he is VERY smart & sells cams fast68plymouth is his user name
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: 440 6pk Cam Selection Tips
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3158067
07/08/23 03:15 PM
07/08/23 03:15 PM
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Joined: May 2023
Posts: 15 Laredo, Texas
Cudatali
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Thanks for the tips, Yes it is power brakes and I would like enough engine vacuum to be able to operate them properly. Surprisingly the previous unknown cam only produced 10 inches of vacuum and it worked well but that was with a single 4bbl setup.
The outboard carbs are factory VS. and I already have the parts necessary to be able to tune them properly, the baseplates and the metering plate jet kits.
Your car sounds like a wicked setup. I already got my drag racing cars I want this to be a great cruiser but I want the idle sound of the 383 HiPo for reference for this setup
1970 Hemi Cuda 1971 Demon 340 1969 Road Runner 440 6bbl 2018 Demon 2021 Hellcat Durango 2023 Demon 170 soon!
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Re: 440 6pk Cam Selection Tips
[Re: 67_Satellite]
#3158079
07/08/23 04:33 PM
07/08/23 04:33 PM
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Joined: May 2023
Posts: 15 Laredo, Texas
Cudatali
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Yup I’ve already talked to Bob a few times. Problem is that he doesn’t have any cores to have a cam grounded from. It’s been a few weeks since I talked to him I could reach out again to see if anything has changed.
1970 Hemi Cuda 1971 Demon 340 1969 Road Runner 440 6bbl 2018 Demon 2021 Hellcat Durango 2023 Demon 170 soon!
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Re: 440 6pk Cam Selection Tips
[Re: Cudatali]
#3158082
07/08/23 04:48 PM
07/08/23 04:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,228 Colleyville
3hundred
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I Live Here
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Yup I’ve already talked to Bob a few times. Problem is that he doesn’t have any cores to have a cam grounded from. It’s been a few weeks since I talked to him I could reach out again to see if anything has changed. Spoke to him a couple of weeks or so ago, he was expecting some cores, didn't know when yet. Don't have an update yet.
'68 Fury Convertible '69 300 Convertible '15 Durango 5.7 Hemi '16 300 S Hemi
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Re: 440 6pk Cam Selection Tips
[Re: 3hundred]
#3158403
07/10/23 01:15 AM
07/10/23 01:15 AM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 721 California
BigDaddy440
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On my 440-6, I went with a hyd. flat tappet cam with about 250 degrees of duration (@.050") and .550 lift. I ran long tube headers as well. What made a HUGE difference was having the carbs dialed in by someone who specifically knows six pack systems really well. Most of us know how to change, jets and power valves, but there are guys out there who know what factory 3x2 systems need to work with a bigger cam. I had a NHRA Sportsman Class guy do mine, and it was night and day.
As far as your camshaft goes, the duration on the camshaft is what forms your power-band. You're running good heads that can easily take advantage of more duration than you're wanting to run. The limiting factor in your combination (as it relates to a cam choice) appears to be your stall speed. With 2000-2500 rpm stall (perfect for the street) I think you're going to want a camshaft with between 230-240 duration at .050" lift on a 440. Any more duation and I think you may need more stall to match. I agree an LSA of 112 may be a good choice for your power brakes. A general rule of thumb is that the tighter the LSA (bigger number) the more tame your idle characteristics will become and more engine vacuum you'll produce. So an LSA of 112 will idle smoother than say a wider LSA of 108 degrees.
Last edited by BigDaddy440; 07/10/23 01:40 AM.
1969 A12 Roadrunner 1970 Plymouth Cuda 1968 Dodge Dart
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Re: 440 6pk Cam Selection Tips
[Re: BigDaddy440]
#3158414
07/10/23 02:16 AM
07/10/23 02:16 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,902 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,902
Bend,OR USA
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On my 440-6, I went with a hyd. flat tappet cam with about 250 degrees of duration (@.050") and .550 lift. I ran long tube headers as well. What made a HUGE difference was having the carbs dialed in by someone who specifically knows six pack systems really well. Most of us know how to change, jets and power valves, but there are guys out there who know what factory 3x2 systems need to work with a bigger cam. I had a NHRA Sportsman Class guy do mine, and it was night and day.
As far as your camshaft goes, the duration on the camshaft is what forms your power-band. You're running good heads that can easily take advantage of more duration than you're wanting to run. The limiting factor in your combination (as it relates to a cam choice) appears to be your stall speed. With 2000-2500 rpm stall (perfect for the street) I think you're going to want a camshaft with between 230-240 duration at .050" lift on a 440. Any more duation and I think you may need more stall to match. I agree an LSA of 112 may be a good choice for your power brakes. A general rule of thumb is that the tighter the LSA (bigger number) the more tame your idle characteristics will become and more engine vacuum you'll produce. So an LSA of 112 will idle smoother than say a wider LSA of 108 degrees. Don't spread misinformation about LSA, L obe separation angles means when the cam lobe is at max lift from TDC, the same lobes ground on 104 LSA will have a lot rougher idle with less manifold vacuum than a cam with the same lobes ground on a 112 LSA due to less over lap at TDC on the wider LSA Another change by widening or tightening or widening the LSA with the same lobes is generally tighter makes more bottom end losing top end power and wider loses bottom end while gaining more power higher in the RPM band. Poor flowing heads like tighter LSA to benefit the bottom end and better heads can use wider LSA with more duration and lift to allow the motor to make peak HP at a higher RPM. Don't forget that the lobe design and how much lift and duration as well a LSA need to be optimized to get the best results from any motor and combination of race parts or street and strip parts
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 07/10/23 02:18 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 6pk Cam Selection Tips
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3158429
07/10/23 06:56 AM
07/10/23 06:56 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,107 Apollo, PA.
B1MAXX
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top fuel
Joined: May 2005
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Apollo, PA.
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On my 440-6, I went with a hyd. flat tappet cam with about 250 degrees of duration (@.050") and .550 lift. I ran long tube headers as well. What made a HUGE difference was having the carbs dialed in by someone who specifically knows six pack systems really well. Most of us know how to change, jets and power valves, but there are guys out there who know what factory 3x2 systems need to work with a bigger cam. I had a NHRA Sportsman Class guy do mine, and it was night and day.
As far as your camshaft goes, the duration on the camshaft is what forms your power-band. You're running good heads that can easily take advantage of more duration than you're wanting to run. The limiting factor in your combination (as it relates to a cam choice) appears to be your stall speed. With 2000-2500 rpm stall (perfect for the street) I think you're going to want a camshaft with between 230-240 duration at .050" lift on a 440. Any more duation and I think you may need more stall to match. I agree an LSA of 112 may be a good choice for your power brakes. A general rule of thumb is that the tighter the LSA (bigger number) the more tame your idle characteristics will become and more engine vacuum you'll produce. So an LSA of 112 will idle smoother than say a wider LSA of 108 degrees. Don't spread misinformation about LSA, L obe separation angles means when the cam lobe is at max lift from TDC, the same lobes ground on 104 LSA will have a lot rougher idle with less manifold vacuum than a cam with the same lobes ground on a 112 LSA due to less over lap at TDC on the wider LSA Another change by widening or tightening or widening the LSA with the same lobes is generally tighter makes more bottom end losing top end power and wider loses bottom end while gaining more power higher in the RPM band. Poor flowing heads like tighter LSA to benefit the bottom end and better heads can use wider LSA with more duration and lift to allow the motor to make peak HP at a higher RPM. Don't forget that the lobe design and how much lift and duration as well a LSA need to be optimized to get the best results from any motor and combination of race parts or street and strip parts Lobe seperation angle has nothing to do with tdc.It is how many degrees the intake and exhaust lobes centers are apart from each other.
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Re: 440 6pk Cam Selection Tips
[Re: B1MAXX]
#3158486
07/10/23 10:26 AM
07/10/23 10:26 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,902 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,902
Bend,OR USA
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On my 440-6, I went with a hyd. flat tappet cam with about 250 degrees of duration (@.050") and .550 lift. I ran long tube headers as well. What made a HUGE difference was having the carbs dialed in by someone who specifically knows six pack systems really well. Most of us know how to change, jets and power valves, but there are guys out there who know what factory 3x2 systems need to work with a bigger cam. I had a NHRA Sportsman Class guy do mine, and it was night and day.
As far as your camshaft goes, the duration on the camshaft is what forms your power-band. You're running good heads that can easily take advantage of more duration than you're wanting to run. The limiting factor in your combination (as it relates to a cam choice) appears to be your stall speed. With 2000-2500 rpm stall (perfect for the street) I think you're going to want a camshaft with between 230-240 duration at .050" lift on a 440. Any more duation and I think you may need more stall to match. I agree an LSA of 112 may be a good choice for your power brakes. A general rule of thumb is that the tighter the LSA (bigger number) the more tame your idle characteristics will become and more engine vacuum you'll produce. So an LSA of 112 will idle smoother than say a wider LSA of 108 degrees. Don't spread misinformation about LSA, L obe separation angles means when the cam lobe is at max lift from TDC, the same lobes ground on 104 LSA will have a lot rougher idle with less manifold vacuum than a cam with the same lobes ground on a 112 LSA due to less over lap at TDC on the wider LSA Another change by widening or tightening or widening the LSA with the same lobes is generally tighter makes more bottom end losing top end power and wider loses bottom end while gaining more power higher in the RPM band. Poor flowing heads like tighter LSA to benefit the bottom end and better heads can use wider LSA with more duration and lift to allow the motor to make peak HP at a higher RPM. Don't forget that the lobe design and how much lift and duration as well a LSA need to be optimized to get the best results from any motor and combination of race parts or street and strip parts Lobe seperation angle has nothing to do with tdc.It is how many degrees the intake and exhaust lobes centers are apart from each other. Come on now, what does LSA measure from A cam ground on 104 LSA means that maximum lift on both lobes (as long as both lobes are equal in duration and symmetrical lobes) is at 104 degrees before top dead center on the exhaust lobes and 104 degrees after top dead center, correct? If the same lobes are ground on a 110 LSA then max lift occurs at 110 degrees before and after TDC, correct In that situation (wider lobe separation angles) the amount of valve opening overlap at TDC is reduce which in many cases affect idle vacuum and the HP and torque curves You are correct on the camshaft having nothing to do with the crankshaft and pistons at TDC other than TDC on the crankshaft is used in designing the cams to work the best for the application they are design for, stock or all out racing cams, the camshaft degrees are used in relation to the crankshaft but the cam travels half as fast as the crank does due to most modern motors are four stroke engines so the cam has to open and close both valves over 720 degrees of crankshaft degrees in relation to top dead center and bottom dead center for one complete power cycle, correct? Details are important, correct
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 07/10/23 10:30 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 6pk Cam Selection Tips
[Re: B1MAXX]
#3158539
07/10/23 12:58 PM
07/10/23 12:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,545 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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Lobe separation angle is simply the angle between the the lobe centers.
Where those occur with relation to tdc is up to the engine builder. The amount of overlap is directly related to LSA and cannot be changed. Again, all that can be dictated by the builder is the timing of the events. Exactly. Nothing more, nothing less. The lobe separation angle is the only cam duration spec that is given in camshaft degrees. It is not directly linked to the installed “centerline”......... which will end up where the assembler puts it.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 440 6pk Cam Selection Tips
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#3158555
07/10/23 02:30 PM
07/10/23 02:30 PM
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Joined: May 2023
Posts: 15 Laredo, Texas
Cudatali
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OP
member
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 15
Laredo, Texas
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Lobe separation angle is simply the angle between the the lobe centers.
Where those occur with relation to tdc is up to the engine builder. The amount of overlap is directly related to LSA and cannot be changed. Again, all that can be dictated by the builder is the timing of the events. Exactly. Nothing more, nothing less. The lobe separation angle is the only cam duration spec that is given in camshaft degrees. It is not directly linked to the installed “centerline”......... which will end up where the assembler puts it. Agree, I messaged you regarding your help for a custom cam.
1970 Hemi Cuda 1971 Demon 340 1969 Road Runner 440 6bbl 2018 Demon 2021 Hellcat Durango 2023 Demon 170 soon!
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