Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
#3156809
07/04/23 09:33 AM
07/04/23 09:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,770 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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After nearly two years I finally managed to finish the engine build and drop the stroker W2 motor into the engine bay.
It did NOT come easily...ran into clearance problems in that the crank would butt up against the converter hub (as the engine was being lowered into the bay) and that would cause the front engine mounts to missalign just enough that I couldn't literally even start them. Things were off by about 0.25-0.50", enough so that I ended up pulling the transmission to crossmember mount bolt out to move the whole assembly to the rear, which finally freed up enough room up front for me to seat the engine into the mounts. Converter registered with the crank pilot, all good there. This is Dynamic 9.5" 4K stall converter, which was previously bolted on to a factory crank in a 360 motor, whereas now this is an Eagle 4" stroker crank (forged), so I'm sure some measurements differ.
Alright...so that took nearly two days and countless tries (well, OK, maybe 5, but still, what a PITA to slug through this in your little DIY "piece of heaven" lol).
So, now comes the time to "tidy-up" with all the little things. First thing was to mate up the engine flexplate to the converter. The converter pulled up to the crank fine, no issues, and there is no clearance left between the converter body and the flexplate retaining bolts, it is pretty tight up there. However, that still left 0.065" clearance between the flexplate and the converter lugs.
Tossing a bolt in there nicely pulls up the plate to the converter but doing so distorts the flexplate a tiny amount. This is the core of my question, what is the max allowable amount that a flexplate can be expected to "take-up"?
The flexplate in question is a B&M 10230 part and the their install instructions only talk about engine to transmission alignment in terms of Total Indicator Reading (TIR).
In my case I can easily slide a 0.065" washer in between the flexplate and the converter lug, but oh boy, that just seems like such a HACK!!! However...it would certainly do the job...
What do you guys think / recommend?
This btw is a weekend toy of mine, expecting the car to pick up from the last leisurely pace of high 12s to maybe low 12s, but I don't anticipate it going any faster since the suspension is setup for road handling as opposed to drag racing, i.e. no traction to speak of!
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: Diplomat360]
#3156820
07/04/23 09:54 AM
07/04/23 09:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,326 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Benton, IL.
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I fought loosing converter bolts and even broke a flex plate years ago. Welded it and the bolts to get through the season. Turned out, it was the situation you describe. In that case, the snout was not going into the crank far enough. A slight dressing down of the snout along with a new flex plate and all was good.
Since then, I have had to dress down the snout of every converter I have bought when putting together a new combo. Now, I don't know if the converter or the crank (or both) is the real issue. But for me, dressing down the snout is the easiest 'fix'.
In my experience, the converter must slide right up to the flex plate. If it must be pulled up with the bolts, the flex plate will be forced to flex every revolution which, depending on the amount, can lead to loosing bolts and possibly a cracked flex plate.
Master, again and still
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: DaveRS23]
#3156834
07/04/23 11:04 AM
07/04/23 11:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,732 Portage,michigan
B3422W5
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Just looked at this the other day..I have a little less than 1/8 inch… has been running 5 years like that, no issues. Footbrake 904, 8 inch vert, good bit of racing.
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight 418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam Best so far, low 10.30’s 1/4 1.41 best 60 foot 6.56 at 104.17
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: B3422W5]
#3156835
07/04/23 11:15 AM
07/04/23 11:15 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,202 aZLiViN
J_BODY
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Just looked at this the other day..I have a little less than 1/8 inch… has been running 5 years like that, no issues. Footbrake 904, 8 inch vert, good bit of racing.
Yes…. But you can probably pull the converter up to flex plate (flush) by hand. I know I can.
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: J_BODY]
#3156854
07/04/23 12:29 PM
07/04/23 12:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,732 Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,732
Portage,michigan
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Just looked at this the other day..I have a little less than 1/8 inch… has been running 5 years like that, no issues. Footbrake 904, 8 inch vert, good bit of racing.
Yes…. But you can probably pull the converter up to flex plate (flush) by hand. I know I can. Yes. It needs pulled that far to bolt up. I put a post on another forum and a few guys all said the 1/8 was fine. My vert has anti ballooning, even though I don’t use the brake or spray, so that clearance “should” be OK. I wasn’t sure hence the thread asking
Last edited by B3422W5; 07/04/23 12:30 PM.
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight 418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam Best so far, low 10.30’s 1/4 1.41 best 60 foot 6.56 at 104.17
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: Diplomat360]
#3156860
07/04/23 12:55 PM
07/04/23 12:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26,032 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
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First thing was to mate up the engine flexplate to the converter. The converter pulled up to the crank fine, no issues, and there is no clearance left between the converter body and the flexplate retaining bolts, it is pretty tight up there. However, that still left 0.065" clearance between the flexplate and the converter lugs.
Tossing a bolt in there nicely pulls up the plate to the converter but doing so distorts the flexplate a tiny amount. This is the core of my question, what is the max allowable amount that a flexplate can be expected to "take-up"? Never use the bolts to take up any gap between the flexplate and the converter lugs nor install any shims to take up the gap. Find the cause and fix it. There are reports that some aftermarket crank registers are improperly machined and reports of the flexplate-to-crank bolts preventing proper pull up...especially with 8-bolt cranks.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#3156916
07/04/23 03:21 PM
07/04/23 03:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,770 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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...Never use the bolts to take up any gap between the flexplate and the converter lugs nor install any shims to take up the gap. Find the cause and fix it. There are reports that some aftermarket crank registers are improperly machined and reports of the flexplate-to-crank bolts preventing proper pull up...especially with 8-bolt cranks. This is precisely what I'm worried about: the flexplate-to-crank bolts are butting up against the converter body as I'm pulling the converter up against the flexplate. I am about to head back out to the garage to troubleshoot further. Got a small snake camera and I'll see if I can get better close-up photos. While I hear what you guys are saying, I've got to be honest: pulling all this apart to fix it correctly (assuming the crank may be the actual root cause here) is a non-starter. I might as well park things for another couple of years. If I was to use machine shop shims to take up the gap, what is the potential downside to taking this approach? Assuming I can confirm that the converter pilot does correctly mate up to the crank (1/8" is the min I see in various docs), I think that would positively locate the transmission and is the most important thing to assure, is it not? Regardless, I honestly appreciate all the feedback. I know doing things RIGHT is the right approach, but at this stage I either figure out a viable way of living with this, or like I said above: keep it parked for another day! ![frown frown](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/frown.gif)
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: Diplomat360]
#3156978
07/04/23 05:13 PM
07/04/23 05:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,770 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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OK, got some pics!
I think I understand what's going on, not to say I know the root cause, but at least I see where the block is.
So the first picture shows the mated parts, the gray stuff is the crank the black stuff is the converter. Things match up pretty well here.
The second photo shows them unmated, you can tell how much of the converter is actually pulled out - so literally pushed back towards the transmission as far as I can - (I measured it to be 0.195"), so there is a decent engagement between the two when actually mated.
The third photo is of the crank pilot end, there are a few little notches you can see, and I think my snake camera just happend to capture one of these.
Alright, so this most likely means that the converter pilot is not machined down enough for it to engage the crank further.
It does look like the crank-to-flexplate bolts are also awfully tight, but there was just no way for me to actually measure this.
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: Diplomat360]
#3157008
07/04/23 07:22 PM
07/04/23 07:22 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,113 Michigan
A727Tflite
master
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master
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...Never use the bolts to take up any gap between the flexplate and the converter lugs nor install any shims to take up the gap. Find the cause and fix it. There are reports that some aftermarket crank registers are improperly machined and reports of the flexplate-to-crank bolts preventing proper pull up...especially with 8-bolt cranks. This is precisely what I'm worried about: the flexplate-to-crank bolts are butting up against the converter body as I'm pulling the converter up against the flexplate. I am about to head back out to the garage to troubleshoot further. Got a small snake camera and I'll see if I can get better close-up photos. While I hear what you guys are saying, I've got to be honest: pulling all this apart to fix it correctly (assuming the crank may be the actual root cause here) is a non-starter. I might as well park things for another couple of years. If I was to use machine shop shims to take up the gap, what is the potential downside to taking this approach? Assuming I can confirm that the converter pilot does correctly mate up to the crank (1/8" is the min I see in various docs), I think that would positively locate the transmission and is the most important thing to assure, is it not? Regardless, I honestly appreciate all the feedback. I know doing things RIGHT is the right approach, but at this stage I either figure out a viable way of living with this, or like I said above: keep it parked for another day! All Mopar rear wheel drive automatics in the 60’s were designed to bottom the converter pilot in the back of the crank and provide for a gap between the flex plate and the converters lugs. That’s is a fact, by design. Assuming the crank, flex plate and converter are to print spec you will have a gap at the lug. The gap varies. Tightening the converter to flex plate bolts will lightly bend the flex plate. That is by design. You mention now that you have the crank to flex plate bolts hitting the converter. That’s a different issue. Bolt head too thick, front cover bowed/ballooned, etc. These bolts should never touch the converter.
Last edited by Transman; 07/04/23 07:23 PM.
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: A727Tflite]
#3157015
07/04/23 07:46 PM
07/04/23 07:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 354 Indiana
Gabby63
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As you stated the converter is about 1/2" from lugs to flex plate . Would this keep the ring gear away from the starter ? I have never seen this much distance , all of my converters have been right up to the flex plate . When I worked at Chry dealer stock converters never had a distance of 1/2" , they always slid right up close to flex plate . I have heard of the pilot not being machined correctly . Never seen this . I would vote for pulling the converter & relieve the snout . Gary
Last edited by Gabby63; 07/04/23 07:50 PM.
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: A727Tflite]
#3157125
07/05/23 09:39 AM
07/05/23 09:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,770 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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...Assuming the crank, flex plate and converter are to print spec you will have a gap at the lug. The gap varies. Tightening the converter to flex plate bolts will lightly bend the flex plate. That is by design... ...but is there a min/max type of a spec to this? ...You mention now that you have the crank to flex plate bolts hitting the converter. That’s a different issue. Bolt head too thick, front cover bowed/ballooned, etc. These bolts should never touch the converter. Well, I cannot tell this for sure. Visually it looks awfully close in there, but at the same time when I push the converter towards the transmission first and than pull it back towards the crank I get a very crisp "thunk" sound...feels and sounds like a solid metal-on-metal hit in a single spot, as opposed to multiple smaller "thunks" that one might expect if it were the crank-to-flexplate bolts hitting instead. This "thunk" sound is something I spent about 10 mins on trying to figure out what the heck was producing it. Visually it matched to the crank-converter_pilot mating up and stopping at the very end. Therefore, I am more and more inclined now to conclude that that converter pilot could probably use a little more machining (towards the face), and in my case given your above comment that could be as little as 0.050".
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: Gabby63]
#3157126
07/05/23 09:47 AM
07/05/23 09:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,770 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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As you stated the converter is about 1/2" from lugs to flex plate . Would this keep the ring gear away from the starter ? I have never seen this much distance , all of my converters have been right up to the flex plate . When I worked at Chry dealer stock converters never had a distance of 1/2" , they always slid right up close to flex plate . I have heard of the pilot not being machined correctly . Never seen this . I would vote for pulling the converter & relieve the snout . Gary Hi Gary, No no...when the converter is pulled OUT of the transmission and brought towards the flexplate there appears to be only about 0.065" room left. I re-read my posts and honestly could not find the reference to "...converter is about 1/2" from the lugs to flex plate...", if I missed it please tell me where because that is absolutely incorrect and it would be a mistake on my part, which I would like to fix.
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: Leigh]
#3157613
07/06/23 04:51 PM
07/06/23 04:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 125 kalispell montana
jwilson 61
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member
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kalispell montana
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Make sure your flexplate to crank bolt heads aren't too thick causing the front of the converter to hit the heads of the bolts before allow the converter to go fully into the crank register
70 cuda 440 6bbl Auto with a dana 60 68 road runner QQ1 383 auto 1970 6 barrel 4 speed Superbird FY1 number matching 15 Challenger 6.4 SRT pearl White 6 Speed 72 Cuda 440 5 speed 71 Road Runner 440 4 speed
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: jwilson 61]
#3157640
07/06/23 06:09 PM
07/06/23 06:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,461 Michigan
MarkZ
Worthy
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Worthy
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Michigan
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What bolts are using? Should have a real thin head on it.
I've got a set of brand new 7/16" ARP converter bolts if you need them. I can bring them to work tomorrow if you do.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: MarkZ]
#3157677
07/06/23 08:18 PM
07/06/23 08:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,326 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
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Posts: 12,326
Benton, IL.
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If someone wants an affordable alternative to the ARP bolts; just get some short grade 8 bolts from the local hardware store. Chuck them up in a drill and grind the head down on a bench grinder. Takes a few minutes, but is a fraction of the price of the ARPs and does the same job.
After pricing the ARPs, I have done this many times.
Master, again and still
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: MarkZ]
#3157709
07/06/23 10:35 PM
07/06/23 10:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,770 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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What bolts are using? Should have a real thin head on it.
I've got a set of brand new 7/16" ARP converter bolts if you need them. I can bring them to work tomorrow if you do. Mark, Appreciate the offer but I'm thinking these are exactly the same bolts I am using. 1) crank to flexplate - ARP 200-2903, 7/16" 2) flexplate to converter - ARP 240-7302, 7/16"
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: B1MAXX]
#3157761
07/07/23 10:19 AM
07/07/23 10:19 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,326 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
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Posts: 12,326
Benton, IL.
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Yes, hopefully common sense comes into play.
Master, again and still
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: jwilson 61]
#3157793
07/07/23 12:49 PM
07/07/23 12:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26,032 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
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Rio Linda, CA
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Make sure your flexplate to crank bolt heads aren't too thick causing the front of the converter to hit the heads of the bolts before allow the converter to go fully into the crank register This seems to be more common with 8-bolt cranks...bolt heads will actually leave noticeable witness marks in the converter.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3157899
07/07/23 09:38 PM
07/07/23 09:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,326 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
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Benton, IL.
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Just a light mist of water and taking your time grinding will prevent any discoloring. Not at all hard to do. Besides, any discoloring would be limited to the surface of the bolt head unless common sense was absent. The vast majority of the bolt wouldn't be affected. Especially if water was used to prevent the heat build up in the first place.
Honestly, Cab, this isn't that hard or risky.
And if prefer softer bolts, just buy Grade 5 rather than 8. Of course, you don't have that choice with ARP.
On 440 Source, 6 crank to flex plate bolts are about $19 plus shipping. If you need 8,that would be over $5 a bolt. Five dollars would buy just about all 8 at your local hardware store. In either Grade 8 or 5.
Just putting all choices into perspective.
Master, again and still
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: Gabby63]
#3158038
07/08/23 02:46 PM
07/08/23 02:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,682 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,682
north of coder
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Moparx , When I built my new combo I wanted to use ARP on flexplate , so I bought ARP , for whatever reason they only came in 6pc packages . Yep , had to buy 2 to get the job done with a couple extra in the box . No wonder they are expensive , you need to buy more than you need . Gary
PS:They do work without issues . i know exactly what you mean, as i did the same thing. ![laugh2 laugh2](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/laugh2.gif) as i haven't put this combo together yet, i was wondering if there would be any issues with the ARP bolts. thanks for the info. just one more thing i don't have to worry about. ![beer beer](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/beer.gif)
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Re: Allowable flexplate to converter clearance?
[Re: Diplomat360]
#3159893
07/16/23 09:52 AM
07/16/23 09:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,770 Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
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So here are a couple more pics that (at least for this particular bolt I checked - and I did NOT check all six of them) clearly indicate there is plenty of clearance between the crank-to-flexplate bolt and the face of the converter. The white sheet is a folder piece of paper stuck between the head of the bolt and the converter body. The 2nd picture shows a much thicker cardboard sheet that still fits quite fine.
Alright, so having said that all I came to discover that as I tightened the remaining motor-to-transmission case bolts, the clearance did actually end up pulling in, which is not something I anticipated, and let me explain what I mean by that.
The initial checks were done with the FOUR top bolts (small block) fully seated. However, as this appeared to be an issue and as I troubleshooted further I noticed that at the very edges where the locating dowels are there was still a bit of clearance, maybe 0.010"??? (I did not measure)
Subsequently once I added the two edge bolts and fully tighteneded ALL of them, it now appeared to almost completely close out the gap I had originally found. Mind you, it was not completely gone, but I would say down to about 0.025" (which I tried to measure with my gap blades, not quite handy getting one in there, but that's the closest I came to getting a good check).
Therefore - and this may be obvious to all of you who have done this countless times - the lesson I learned here is that ALL the engine-to-transmission case bolts must all be installed before anything else can be checked!
Honestly I feel a bit like an idiot to have missed this (I think this was a 'miss'). Thanks everyone for the feedback and troublshooting suggestions though as this allowed me to work through the issue!
Now off I got to fire-up the motor...keeping my fingers crossed we do not get rained out like yesterday!!!
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