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Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: klunick] #3147600
05/30/23 01:39 PM
05/30/23 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by klunick
So Ford is also saying they are losing about what 40k on every Lightning sold. The plan is to sell more and this volume hopefully makes them profitable. But, right now Ford has 1000's and 1000's of overpriced trucks sitting on the dealer lots. Why? Who the heck can afford 60-75k for a pickup truck. Someone is drinking Kool-Aid here. For sold 66k electric vehicles out of a total of 1.8m and lost money on every one of them. I'm sure Ford accountants have the figure, but what volume does this become profitable? I believe(memory may fail me) that margins are the F150 are 40% right now. But, people are not buying them. They are also not buy GMs or Rams overpriced pigs. So, Selling this truck for 60k isn't going to cut it. Even worse. Ford only makes and sells one car in the US so subtract the mustang sales from that 1.8m and you see the lightning sales are miniscule compared to all the other ICE truck variants. If I were Ford/GM/Stellantis I would be figuring out how to sue the crap out of the EPA for overstepping their boundries with CAFE. It doesn't really matter. Either sue the gov(remember the gov does not direct the US economy and this was just affirmed by the SC on coal plants) and waste the money in court or figure all US auto companies will be out of business in 10 years unless some huge and I mean huge tech bomb drops to change battery size and efficiency.
I have told folks, yep, I make good money and am doing okay and should be able to retire fairly well. But, one reason is I don't go around buying 50k cars. I'm sure there are folks that make more than me but I'm also sure most make less. If I can't see buying something this stupidly expensive, I don't see Joe Smith and his wife making 60k a year doing it for sure. ie. Ford/Ram/GM are literally pricing themselves out of business. Hybrids are a different animal but that isn't what we are talking about. We will see about solid state batteries but by the time they roll out this will all be over. Solid state at least could offer more dependable range, less weight, less use of very expensive materials, and smaller size. Even worse is Ford basically stated they see themselves as a tech company that makes vehicles and plan on selling subscriptions. I'm a technophobe. Last thing I want is to have to pay a huge price for a vehicle that may not operate unless I continue to pay the drug dealer.



Increasing sales volume will drive up demand for lithium, copper, rare earth and give us even higher prices! This is not a scenario where higher volume will drive down prices. Platinum went from about $100 an ounce before cats to $650ish within 10 years when the last automakers finnaly embraced cats.... higher production volume of catalyst sales made the price go up not down.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: 360view] #3147602
05/30/23 01:45 PM
05/30/23 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 360view
Saturday Wall Street Journal says that on Thursday Ford made a deal with Tesla to allow Ford EVs to recharge at Tesla charging stations.



If they really wanted to further push their agenda they would standardize all charging ports like they did with OBDII diagnostic ports. Additionally standardize batteries and make em all a 5 minute job to swap em so the "gas" station can have em charged and ready to drop in to make super fast fill up times like my ICE car. The manufactures need to get over themselves and work together to fix the real big problems that battery electrics have (range anxiety, speed of "re-fueling" where can I charge up?...)


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: HotRodDave] #3147637
05/30/23 03:55 PM
05/30/23 03:55 PM
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Tesla is short of cash,
I wonder how much Ford paid “up front” to make this happen.

Right now existing Ford EV plug is quite different from Tesla plug.

Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: HotRodDave] #3147705
05/30/23 09:37 PM
05/30/23 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by HotRodDave
Originally Posted by klunick
So Ford is also saying they are losing about what 40k on every Lightning sold. The plan is to sell more and this volume hopefully makes them profitable. But, right now Ford has 1000's and 1000's of overpriced trucks sitting on the dealer lots. Why? Who the heck can afford 60-75k for a pickup truck. Someone is drinking Kool-Aid here. For sold 66k electric vehicles out of a total of 1.8m and lost money on every one of them. I'm sure Ford accountants have the figure, but what volume does this become profitable? I believe(memory may fail me) that margins are the F150 are 40% right now. But, people are not buying them. They are also not buy GMs or Rams overpriced pigs. So, Selling this truck for 60k isn't going to cut it. Even worse. Ford only makes and sells one car in the US so subtract the mustang sales from that 1.8m and you see the lightning sales are miniscule compared to all the other ICE truck variants. If I were Ford/GM/Stellantis I would be figuring out how to sue the crap out of the EPA for overstepping their boundries with CAFE. It doesn't really matter. Either sue the gov(remember the gov does not direct the US economy and this was just affirmed by the SC on coal plants) and waste the money in court or figure all US auto companies will be out of business in 10 years unless some huge and I mean huge tech bomb drops to change battery size and efficiency.
I have told folks, yep, I make good money and am doing okay and should be able to retire fairly well. But, one reason is I don't go around buying 50k cars. I'm sure there are folks that make more than me but I'm also sure most make less. If I can't see buying something this stupidly expensive, I don't see Joe Smith and his wife making 60k a year doing it for sure. ie. Ford/Ram/GM are literally pricing themselves out of business. Hybrids are a different animal but that isn't what we are talking about. We will see about solid state batteries but by the time they roll out this will all be over. Solid state at least could offer more dependable range, less weight, less use of very expensive materials, and smaller size. Even worse is Ford basically stated they see themselves as a tech company that makes vehicles and plan on selling subscriptions. I'm a technophobe. Last thing I want is to have to pay a huge price for a vehicle that may not operate unless I continue to pay the drug dealer.



Increasing sales volume will drive up demand for lithium, copper, rare earth and give us even higher prices! This is not a scenario where higher volume will drive down prices. Platinum went from about $100 an ounce before cats to $650ish within 10 years when the last automakers finnaly embraced cats.... higher production volume of catalyst sales made the price go up not down.


Ding Ding, we have a winner!! Now imagine that they say sales are about 5-6% right now and companies have been having issues getting materials for batteries. What would it look like at 100% 12 years from now(2035) if some tech breakthrough doesn't happen? I can tell you. The price of a vehicle will be unobtainium for the average Joe or even the above average Joe. Just this weekend some organization has warned about blackouts lasting days this summer. The current agenda being pushed will take all of us back to 1870. I always wondered back in 2008 why the Smart grid didn't basically include folks getting solar on every house. Think about it. Even if you were connected to the grid, a point of origin power system means less stress on the grid. A lot less stress if we all did this. But, then again, that would be the government "directing" the economy. Just food for thought.


67 Barracuda FB 69 Superbee "Southern Maryland: If you want a good looking woman, you had better bring her with you"
Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: 360view] #3147737
05/31/23 06:08 AM
05/31/23 06:08 AM
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I watched a John Soloman one hour show about small modular nuclear reactors.
There is more going on there than I was aware of.
USA Military and USA Space program wants small nuclear reactors and is funding designs.

Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: 360view] #3147832
05/31/23 01:50 PM
05/31/23 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 360view
I watched a John Soloman one hour show about small modular nuclear reactors.
There is more going on there than I was aware of.
USA Military and USA Space program wants small nuclear reactors and is funding designs.



Mr. Fusion? We were supposed to have that 8 years ago.

I would be worried about the general population having useable amounts of nuclear material, remember the kid that gathered up Americium from smoke detectors, enough to build a dirty bomb.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: HotRodDave] #3148213
06/02/23 02:13 PM
06/02/23 02:13 PM
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VERY simple solution to all of this: embrace petroleum. There are NO good reasons that we need to move away from the tried & true. The only good reason would be that we were running out of oil.


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Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: Sunroofcuda] #3148327
06/02/23 10:08 PM
06/02/23 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunroofcuda
The only good reason would be that we were running out of oil.


Visiting the Way Back Machine, I had to take a half-semester course in college called World Energy Resources. It was mandated by New York State for all SUNY/CUNY colleges. Professor Doom was adamant that we would be bone-dry out of oil by 1990, and as we were entering a new 'climate ice age' we would all starve/freeze to death. Kind of made my C in Language class seem comparatively irrelevant.

Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: Jer] #3148935
06/05/23 04:18 PM
06/05/23 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jer
Originally Posted by Sunroofcuda
The only good reason would be that we were running out of oil.


Visiting the Way Back Machine, I had to take a half-semester course in college called World Energy Resources. It was mandated by New York State for all SUNY/CUNY colleges. Professor Doom was adamant that we would be bone-dry out of oil by 1990, and as we were entering a new 'climate ice age' we would all starve/freeze to death. Kind of made my C in Language class seem comparatively irrelevant.



Yup, I heard all that doom and gloom in the 80s as a kid.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: HotRodDave] #3148998
06/05/23 09:16 PM
06/05/23 09:16 PM
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Problem is, the most recent gens are complete da's that don't seem to realize the world didn't start the moment they were born. For years my youngest(19 now) called everything before he was born, "The before Times". You tell someone about the gloom and doom Ice age predictions of the 70's and they are stunned. Most of us are older so have seen this crap before and see it coming a mile away. The young folks, they just believe it. It doesn't help that the media is banging on this garbage 24/7 like it is real. Would the world be better if we didn't have ICE vehicles ever? Maybe, but we do. It isn't like they still get 8mpg. Heck my Corolla can get 40+ if driven a certain way. What more do you want? So I'll run the math for a youngster, 60k for an EV and replace battery every 100k for 15k cost. Drive car 300k and it costs 90k not including electricity. By Corolla for 24k and drive for 300k because darn thing never breaks. 90k vs 24k and that is simple math. Now, where are those 2 used batteries going to end up??????????? Since when are we not paying a disposal fee for anything???? Then tell them the US uses about 18m barrels a day. Industry uses 12m of that. Hey, we are still using oil so when someone tells you something, stop, think, pull head out of rear.


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Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: Jer] #3149042
06/06/23 05:58 AM
06/06/23 05:58 AM
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The book “unsettled” by Steven Koonin is a good read about these issues.

Steven Koonin also did a good “quick facts” talk on C-Span TV that is now on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXvBdwmxT2c

Koonin used to teach physics and was a pioneer in computer models at Cal Tech
and seems to follow the Richard Feynman model of stating the scientific facts even if it upsets one or the other current “narrative.”

Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: 360view] #3149901
06/09/23 06:57 AM
06/09/23 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 360view
Saturday Wall Street Journal says that on Thursday Ford made a deal with Tesla to allow Ford EVs to recharge at Tesla charging stations.


Friday WSJ reporting that GM has now signed a deal to allow its future EVs to recharge at Tesla stations.

Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: 360view] #3153250
06/21/23 07:40 AM
06/21/23 07:40 AM
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Rivian signs deal with Tesla Supercharger Charging Stations to use and mentions an adapter.

Re: Heavier & heavier EV batteries [Re: 360view] #3153304
06/21/23 12:03 PM
06/21/23 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 360view
Rivian signs deal with Tesla Supercharger Charging Stations to use and mentions an adapter.
They way I read it was that existing owners would get a Tesla adapter and new owners would have Tesla plugs but get CCA adapters. But who knows...

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