Re: Reusing rings after hone
[Re: LA360]
#3129810
03/16/23 08:07 AM
03/16/23 08:07 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 554 Kentucky
clovis
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OP
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Issue 1-machining Called a couple of machine shops going to be a couple months out to get it in. The machine shops in my area are far and few between, and only a few with really good reputations. This will likely push me to try my hand at honing.
Issue 2-rings With the piston cut for Dyke, what are my options for rings? Basically, is there a plug and play option I can call and order? Or will the piston need to be machined in order to accept a “normal” ring package?
Thanks for the help.
'75 Plymouth Duster Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126 Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135 Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Reusing rings after hone
[Re: clovis]
#3129819
03/16/23 09:02 AM
03/16/23 09:02 AM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 885 Missouri
jwb123
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 885
Missouri
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If you are going to hand hone the cylinders use a hone like this. https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-15000-...;hvtargid=pla-4583520395219740&psc=1And you need a dial bore gauge to check your work. https://www.amazon.com/Dial-Indicator-Bore-Gage-Industrial/dp/B0B84QSCYF/ref=sr_1_51?crid=2Z81L1WUGC13H&keywords=dial+bore+gauge&qid=1678971333&sprefix=dial+bore+gauge%2Caps%2C242&sr=8-51&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc And can you reuse those rings? Depends, but the rings are designed to wear into the cylinders, the cross hatch pattern is there to hold oil so this process happens without developing too much heat in the bores. I have done what you described and got away with it in a pinch. And don't worry about getting all the minor pits and scratches out of the bores. I always leak test a new engine on the stand as a base line. You most likely will lose a few percent of leak, and maybe a few HP as well. But it will run. On my race car I don't really see a big loss in ET until the leakage gets to 30% or worse. When new cold on the stand I want 10% or better. Of course if you gap the rings for nitrous you will get more leak.
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Re: Reusing rings after hone
[Re: Scully]
#3129833
03/16/23 10:04 AM
03/16/23 10:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213 New York
polyspheric
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213
New York
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cross hatch is wayyyyyyy off This ^^^
Rings see a shallow cross-hatch angle (less than 10 degrees) as a series of speed bumps. Caused by not moving the hone up & down fast enough.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Reusing rings after hone
[Re: jwb123]
#3129846
03/16/23 10:35 AM
03/16/23 10:35 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 554 Kentucky
clovis
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I'm in Bowling Green.
Like I said above when I did a leakdown with it cold on the shop floor I was at 90-92, which I thought I would be good to go. The only reason I took it down as far as I did was to check bearings. When I rolled it over I noticed almost all the piston skirts were scuffed so I went ahead and took the pistons out. Then when I saw the corrosion in the cylinders and the low degree on the crosshatch I begin to rethink putting it back together without touching anything. This is not an all out racing effort, I run a low key Saturday night program at Beech Bend, hit most of the test and tunes and go get ice cream on occasion, last year I put a 100 passes on it.
I have the Lisle 1500 and a couple of dial bore gauges (.0005 and .0001).
Again, I really appreciate all the input.
'75 Plymouth Duster Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126 Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135 Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Reusing rings after hone
[Re: dvw]
#3129999
03/16/23 09:41 PM
03/16/23 09:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 554 Kentucky
clovis
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OP
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I measured the pistons tonight, and the rings are 031 Dykes (which are nearly impossible to find) The top groove measures .075, if I have them cut to accept a 1/16 ring, how tall does the groove need to be? .0645? That should leave a little undercut above the ring which I’ve read can still help the ring seal.
What are the recommendations for rings and where to get them?
I made a couple of practice hits with the hone on my old block. I bought a variable speed controller but it doesn’t go down far enough as I am having a hard time controlling my speed. If I can get it slowed downed at a consistent speed the 45 angle is much easier to get otherwise your stroke rate has to be very aggressive. I’m probably in the 25-30 degree range now.
'75 Plymouth Duster Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126 Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135 Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Reusing rings after hone
[Re: clovis]
#3130058
03/17/23 08:45 AM
03/17/23 08:45 AM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 885 Missouri
jwb123
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 885
Missouri
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I measured the pistons tonight, and the rings are 031 Dykes (which are nearly impossible to find) The top groove measures .075, if I have them cut to accept a 1/16 ring, how tall does the groove need to be? .0645? That should leave a little undercut above the ring which I’ve read can still help the ring seal.
What are the recommendations for rings and where to get them?
I made a couple of practice hits with the hone on my old block. I bought a variable speed controller but it doesn’t go down far enough as I am having a hard time controlling my speed. If I can get it slowed downed at a consistent speed the 45 angle is much easier to get otherwise your stroke rate has to be very aggressive. I’m probably in the 25-30 degree range now.
I use a variable speed 1/2 drill it has a threaded button to control how far you can pull the trigger. If I remember right about 300 rpm's is the right speed or as you said you have to plunge the drill very fast up and down if it spins faster. From experience be careful if you hit the main bearing web with the hone the drill will wrap you up. I taught engine rebuilding at a technical college for 26 years the students tore up so many hones I bought this travel limiter. https://www.ebay.com/itm/225482665263 It was also a safety thing I was worried they might break some fingers.
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Re: Reusing rings after hone
[Re: jwb123]
#3130061
03/17/23 08:52 AM
03/17/23 08:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,773 North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,773
North Dakota
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I measured the pistons tonight, and the rings are 031 Dykes (which are nearly impossible to find) The top groove measures .075, if I have them cut to accept a 1/16 ring, how tall does the groove need to be? .0645? That should leave a little undercut above the ring which I’ve read can still help the ring seal.
What are the recommendations for rings and where to get them?
I made a couple of practice hits with the hone on my old block. I bought a variable speed controller but it doesn’t go down far enough as I am having a hard time controlling my speed. If I can get it slowed downed at a consistent speed the 45 angle is much easier to get otherwise your stroke rate has to be very aggressive. I’m probably in the 25-30 degree range now.
I use a variable speed 1/2 drill it has a threaded button to control how far you can pull the trigger. If I remember right about 300 rpm's is the right speed or as you said you have to plunge the drill very fast up and down if it spins faster. From experience be careful if you hit the main bearing web with the hone the drill will wrap you up. I taught engine rebuilding at a technical college for 26 years the students tore up so many hones I bought this travel limiter. https://www.ebay.com/itm/225482665263 It was also a safety thing I was worried they might break some fingers. What's the largest bore size you can use that stop on? I can't find any listing on the web other than the eBay one.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Reusing rings after hone
[Re: dvw]
#3130071
03/17/23 09:55 AM
03/17/23 09:55 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 554 Kentucky
clovis
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OP
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I’m 90% with you at this point but I do want to quickly explore cutting the piston. I have access to machinist just not an automotive machinists, which means I have to tell them exactly what I want - width and depth. I sent pictures and talked with one of them and he indicated that what I was asking appeared straight forward and that he would need to make the tool to do the cut. I am actually taking him a piston Monday just to confirm. I have had them do quite a few parts for me over the years and thus far everything has worked great. I do see where this one has a much larger window for error. After he looks at them in person, I will have a better feel for whether or not I want to venture down this road. I think I am going to go ahead and order a set of rings, worst case I return them. So if you guys could point me in a good direction for rings (both a full set and a 2nd ring set) that would be helpful, plus having the ring in hand may help with the machining decisions. If If I order today, I can more than likely have them by Tuesday next week. My goal is to start assembly next weekend be it a new 2nd ring on an untouched cylinder or all new rings in a honed cylinder or something in between is still up in the air. Will something like this my best bet? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tsr-cr919060
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'75 Plymouth Duster Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126 Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135 Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Reusing rings after hone
[Re: clovis]
#3130076
03/17/23 10:11 AM
03/17/23 10:11 AM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,690 Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman
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master
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,690
Stuttgart, Arkansas
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I surely wouldn't touch those pistons and I see no reason to touch rings with leakdown under 10%. Put the thing back together and have some fun. Don't make this expensive and time consuming.
2011 Drag Pak Challenger
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Re: Reusing rings after hone
[Re: rickseeman]
#3130088
03/17/23 10:33 AM
03/17/23 10:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,101 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
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master
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Shelby Twp. Mi
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I surely wouldn't touch those pistons and I see no reason to touch rings with leakdown under 10%. Put the thing back together and have some fun. Don't make this expensive and time consuming. Pretty much agree. Either fix it correctly or don't mess with it. But ME... i'd send the pistons to Rebco have a convo. He'll answer all the concerns you have aired here. Depending on where the bore cleaned-up, i might coat the skirts. Rebco can gas port cheap too...maybe put a napier second and fix the ring pack however he recommended. how is P-2-V? all these things I'd consider MYSELF but it sounds like your after a budget build. Odd because it looks like there may be some good pieces there.
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Re: Reusing rings after hone
[Re: HardcoreB]
#3130286
03/18/23 10:09 AM
03/18/23 10:09 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 554 Kentucky
clovis
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OP
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I am going to follow the path of least resistance and just put it back together. The only thing I catch myself debating is whether or not to lightly hit it with a ball hone.
'75 Plymouth Duster Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126 Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135 Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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Re: Reusing rings after hone
[Re: clovis]
#3130289
03/18/23 10:16 AM
03/18/23 10:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,773 North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,773
North Dakota
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I am going to follow the path of least resistance and just put it back together. The only thing I catch myself debating is whether or not to lightly hit it with a ball hone.
If you are determined to re-use the rings, kiss the bores with a ball hone. You need some profile on either the rings or the bore to get them to re-seat.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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