Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#3052351
06/22/22 10:30 AM
06/22/22 10:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,842 Omaha Ne
TJP
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
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Posts: 15,842
Omaha Ne
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I don’t think I’ve seen a ten wide drive with an expansion joint on the width. Usually only see expansion used when you have two different pours. The control joints need to be about 8 feet apart or the concrete will create those for you for free. Look at pours by boobs and you’ll see a big crack spaced about that far apart on them.
I’d call up a local concrete supply house and see what Sikka flex costs per tube and try to figure up the coverage area you need. Maybe push a backer rod down in there to lessen what you have to put on it. You could do a test area and see what you think. Should be way less than 4-5k. I mean way way less. You could probably get a handyman to do it if you aren’t able to bend down that much if you go buy the materials. It’s really just like caulking work.
Or have an asphalt guy do the lower portion and then try for a repair of just what’s up near the house. Asphalt is usually like 25-30% of the cost of concrete. I detest it near a house or for a short driveway, but could be convinced to live with a few hundred feet away from the house. The irony in you suggestion is at the time asphalt was much cheaper but I dismissed the idea as it required regular maintenance LMAO So, I paid more and went with concrete smartly thinking the cost of asphalt maintenance would eventually equilibrate the additional cost of the concrete Uhh, that didn't quite work out LOL AND the "RED" color represents my backside LOLA And I think I have tried just about every caulk out there but have lost track of which seemed better. None so far have stood out as being superior and if so only slightly. Sika flex was one of them
Last edited by TJP; 06/22/22 10:37 AM.
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Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question
[Re: TJP]
#3052439
06/22/22 03:46 PM
06/22/22 03:46 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,357 central Florida
VL21
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,357
central Florida
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This does nothing to help with your problem, but it sounds like freeze/thaw issues with moisture getting in at the expansion joints ... I guess I understand the thinking of having an unbroken driving surface, no expansion joints to thump across ... ever see the effect of a little dirt, a little water, and a winter freeze in a block of granite?
I think I would live with it, do what I could to slow the process, and move on.
Of course, firing all your employees HAS probably freed up a little cash outflow, so, ah hell, get it tore up and build a new one.
Sorry, just jabbing at you a little, I'm a sarcastic miserable old crank ...
It takes gasoline to interest me.
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Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#3052471
06/22/22 05:20 PM
06/22/22 05:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,344 Jefferson State
srt
ESYC
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ESYC
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,344
Jefferson State
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Sorry this is so long. Ideally the design would look at the total expansion and contraction from the hottest to oldest temperature rance and then take the length of the drive and make sure it is divided into adequate segments the harness the flex. Having designed been involved with design of all sorts of roads, parking areas and airports areas with asphalt and concrete surfacing I've seen the god and bad.Not knowing the exact grade (steepness) of the drive there are at least two big forces working on the drive.Loading (dead load (weight of slab) and live load (weight of vehicles)) and thermal expansion. Concrete expands 0.0000055 per linear inch of concrete per degree F temperature change. This totals about 0.66 inch of movement per 100 feet with a 100° F temp swing from summer to winter. Thus 600' will try to move nearly 4". If the pours were made in 33' lengths with transverse expansion joints it would still create problems. Each time the slabs expand and contract (especially on a slope) they will move down hill every year. If the original slab had no transverse e.j.'s it would be much like standing a wet noodle on end, it would move about as it chooses.. If the structural section is adequate, not just the gravel, but the underlying native material as well, I have a concept that you may talk with the contractor. Think Bulldozer tracks. Segmented ribbon with cleats the dig into the earth. Cut the 600' length drive into 5 100' lengths. Each cut will consist of two cuts 12" apart. Remove that concrete and trench to at least 18" below and if frost line is deeper, at least that depth. Each trench needs to be at least as wide as the drive. Place 2 horizontal rebars and 8 or 10 vertical in the trench attach 1/4" styrofoam to the vertical faces of cut surfaces of the slab and fill with good structural concrete and finish the top. Once set scratch down the styrofoam and caulk with a top quality elastomeric caulk. Beside the thermal and grvity, there is the resultant forces of tire rotation uphill and braking downhill that is pushing (creeping) the concrete down hill. The above will not work is the navive soils are yielding (wet, clay or high organic. It needs a good road bed material of high "R" value. Again not seeing or knowing the soil type I can only imagine. For a quick test sift your native soils through a piece of window screen (fine screen) take that dust and mix in a bowl with some water until it's like putty. Put a 1/4 or half a teaspoon in your hand and roll it into a tube shape and when it gets 2 to 3" in length see if you can pick it up by one end or the middle. https://engineeringtraining.tpub.com/14070/css/Roll-Or-Thread-Test-394.htmI don't want to advise, nor cause you wasteful spending. The right guy on the grade will save you. fwiw, if mine I'd look at the worse area and try something like I explained above. If it is widespread (entire length) it is definitely a design issue and up to you for approach to corral it in.
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Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question
[Re: srt]
#3052558
06/22/22 09:51 PM
06/22/22 09:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,842 Omaha Ne
TJP
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,842
Omaha Ne
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Sorry this is so long. Ideally the design would look at the total expansion and contraction from the hottest to oldest temperature rance and then take the length of the drive and make sure it is divided into adequate segments the harness the flex. Having designed been involved with design of all sorts of roads, parking areas and airports areas with asphalt and concrete surfacing I've seen the god and bad.Not knowing the exact grade (steepness) of the drive there are at least two big forces working on the drive.Loading (dead load (weight of slab) and live load (weight of vehicles)) and thermal expansion. Concrete expands 0.0000055 per linear inch of concrete per degree F temperature change. This totals about 0.66 inch of movement per 100 feet with a 100° F temp swing from summer to winter. Thus 600' will try to move nearly 4". If the pours were made in 33' lengths with transverse expansion joints it would still create problems. Each time the slabs expand and contract (especially on a slope) they will move down hill every year. If the original slab had no transverse e.j.'s it would be much like standing a wet noodle on end, it would move about as it chooses.. If the structural section is adequate, not just the gravel, but the underlying native material as well, I have a concept that you may talk with the contractor. Think Bulldozer tracks. Segmented ribbon with cleats the dig into the earth. Cut the 600' length drive into 5 100' lengths. Each cut will consist of two cuts 12" apart. Remove that concrete and trench to at least 18" below and if frost line is deeper, at least that depth. Each trench needs to be at least as wide as the drive. Place 2 horizontal rebars and 8 or 10 vertical in the trench attach 1/4" styrofoam to the vertical faces of cut surfaces of the slab and fill with good structural concrete and finish the top. Once set scratch down the styrofoam and caulk with a top quality elastomeric caulk. Beside the thermal and grvity, there is the resultant forces of tire rotation uphill and braking downhill that is pushing (creeping) the concrete down hill. The above will not work is the navive soils are yielding (wet, clay or high organic. It needs a good road bed material of high "R" value. Again not seeing or knowing the soil type I can only imagine. For a quick test sift your native soils through a piece of window screen (fine screen) take that dust and mix in a bowl with some water until it's like putty. Put a 1/4 or half a teaspoon in your hand and roll it into a tube shape and when it gets 2 to 3" in length see if you can pick it up by one end or the middle. https://engineeringtraining.tpub.com/14070/css/Roll-Or-Thread-Test-394.htmI don't want to advise, nor cause you wasteful spending. The right guy on the grade will save you. fwiw, if mine I'd look at the worse area and try something like I explained above. If it is widespread (entire length) it is definitely a design issue and up to you for approach to corral it in. OK So we have someone who knows a bit about concrete etc. The driveway has not moved at all or very little downhill. The center cut is opening side to side or left to right as you go up the drive way. But not in all areas. initially the gap appeared about midway up. It has spread a bit over the years both up and down the center joint. If one peels the caulk out the gap between the slabs are evenly spaced top to bottom, not angled or V'd. The concrete is otherwise perfect Any further ideas and stabilizing it short of a complete tear out ? Thanks
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Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question
[Re: VL21]
#3052566
06/22/22 10:03 PM
06/22/22 10:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,842 Omaha Ne
TJP
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
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Omaha Ne
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I think I would live with it, do what I could to slow the process, and move on.
Of course, firing all your employees HAS probably freed up a little cash outflow, so, ah hell, get it tore up and build a new one.
Sorry, just jabbing at you a little, I'm a sarcastic miserable old crank ...
I'll agree with your first comment, The second? They screwed me over quite well ( ~250K). The stabbing in the back was more costly emotionally that the financial lossleaving scars that will never heal. WHA WHA, my dumb a-- fault for believing and trusting. And if I had that 250K, I just might have it re done. And no offense taken just wanting to clarify things. BTW one was my brothers son
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Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question
[Re: TJP]
#3052570
06/22/22 10:16 PM
06/22/22 10:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,344 Jefferson State
srt
ESYC
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ESYC
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,344
Jefferson State
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I don't mind helping out with the hot weather, this is better than other options. Failing mid length is a good indicator the basement is adequate, as is the base rock. This is where I'd expect to see exp cont creep. How about trying two cross cut cleats first at 250' from the bottom, the second 50' further up the hill. if 30" deep it would be only a couple yards. If you use the 8", or 12" wide trench and increase the styrofoam to 1" thickness, scratch it down 1" and apply sealant to form a 1" wide x 1" tall slug of sealant all the way across. The material needs to be elastomeric and able the stretch and compress (much like a motor mount. If per chance that "crack" is widening in the 50' section and the base was smoothly graded before the concrete was poured, one might be able to saw cut the 5' wide ribbon in half or thirds and with a big azz excavator (with street pads or lumber) to cross drive pull the slabs back together (before the cleats are poured. Of course any material in the crack needs to be mostly removed before "sliding" in together and reseal any cuts and e.j.'s similar to the above. The thing with most (all?) elastomers is the depth should always be kept to the width of joint or the material will shear at the face of concrete(woor, glass, whatever material is being sealed). This is why backer or sand should always decrease depth of sealant. p.s. sorry for any typos..... I noticed a bunch above..
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Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question
[Re: TJP]
#3052587
06/23/22 12:16 AM
06/23/22 12:16 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,304 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,304
Someplace you aren't
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I think I would live with it, do what I could to slow the process, and move on.
Of course, firing all your employees HAS probably freed up a little cash outflow, so, ah hell, get it tore up and build a new one.
Sorry, just jabbing at you a little, I'm a sarcastic miserable old crank ...
I'll agree with your first comment, The second? They screwed me over quite well ( ~250K). The stabbing in the back was more costly emotionally that the financial lossleaving scars that will never heal. WHA WHA, my dumb a-- fault for believing and trusting. And if I had that 250K, I just might have it re done. And no offense taken just wanting to clarify things. BTW one was my brothers son Family can do the worst to people, far worse than an outsider. I learned early on just how bad it can be. Not sure why that is, you’d think family would have your back as the world is such an unforgiving place, but alas that isn’t the case. Our family business is long gone, untold amounts of money unaccounted for, inheritance swindled, and I’ve got quite a few that have no concept of what they did being wrong and therefore it’s been decades since I’ve spoken to them.
I want my fair share
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Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question
[Re: srt]
#3052589
06/23/22 12:27 AM
06/23/22 12:27 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,641 On the run…
BloFish
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 16,641
On the run…
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srt knows of what he speaks, I would listen to his advice.
It really doesn't matter whether you win or lose… as long as you look good doing it!
‘65 A100 ‘69 ‘Cuda ‘73 Vega GT ‘06 Mega Cab ‘14 Mercedes SLK
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Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question
[Re: srt]
#3052603
06/23/22 06:22 AM
06/23/22 06:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162 USA
360view
Moparts resident spammer
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Moparts resident spammer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
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How to build a road on either an uphill or downhill grade that might last 1000 years https://www.zmescience.com/science/how-roman-roads-were-built/scroll down to “How Roman roads were made” While your mind might first think “Drainage, Drainage, Drainage” now refocus on Freeze/Thaw Expand/Contract over thousands of cycles You might object: Romans had no idea about concrete ! No, no, no - their concrete was actually SUPERIOR to modern stuff ( made from unique volcanic ash )
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Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#3052836
06/23/22 10:02 PM
06/23/22 10:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,842 Omaha Ne
TJP
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,842
Omaha Ne
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Family can do the worst to people, far worse than an outsider. I learned early on just how bad it can be. Not sure why that is, you’d think family would have your back as the world is such an unforgiving place, but alas that isn’t the case. Our family business is long gone, untold amounts of money unaccounted for, inheritance swindled, and I’ve got quite a few that have no concept of what they did being wrong and therefore it’s been decades since I’ve spoken to them.
I do not anticipate ever speaking to any of the family involved nor those that took advantage of what we offered when help was needed. I do have a saying I use that applies, "Lessons paid for are best remembered" and I paid dearly. To SRT, I appreciate your advice but it's likely out of budget. To 360 View, thank you for your suggestions which I will look at but at this point the re-caulk with an 8 year warranty is appealing as I'm not getting any younger and can't even grasp what the driveway would cost to replace. I do have another well know concrete company coming out to get their input. their specialty is stabilizing anything that is concrete and existing but moving. To all thank you for taking the time to respond. I will update after the "stabilizers" look it over
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Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question
[Re: TJP]
#3052934
06/24/22 11:20 AM
06/24/22 11:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,344 Jefferson State
srt
ESYC
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ESYC
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,344
Jefferson State
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I'd like to suggest that you approach the concept of the traverse cleats with the contractor. Saw cuts and removal, reinf steel, concrete and sealant could be developed for each cut and do what you can. The excavator for trenching ann shift the slab sections. I'm afraid that topically treating the underlying problems will do nothing except make it worse over time. Keep us updated
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Re: Concrete Driveway problem / question
[Re: TJP]
#3053188
06/25/22 01:17 AM
06/25/22 01:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,344 Jefferson State
srt
ESYC
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ESYC
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,344
Jefferson State
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Honestly I think the drive looks pretty good. Transverse e.j.'s would have prevented any side to side movement, imho. This is going to be long again. Fixing these types of things is difficult to put into words, but fairly easy once the basic concepts are understood. The piers will likely do little to resist over time. The forces moving the slab sideways will almost certainly push the pier over, or plow it through the soil. If a long deep curb had been put in place of the piers, ir would likely still move. It almost certainly is the expansion contraction. I sketched up a little drawing in iso view. Think of the cleat as a transverse curb, or anchor pushing back against the slab forced as the concrete expands in the summer heat. Your pics include on of the pier where a sealed crack in the drive slab adjacent. That is a good indication the slab is moving toward the pier. and the crack appears as that edge stretches outward. In the upper left is a representation of the rebar layout. If mine I'd put transverse bars at 6" apart stacked vertically and about 8' apart vertically. In the lower right is a cross section of a slab with correctly placed sealant. The top is the sealant in a hot day in the summer, the bottom on a cold day in the winter. Ideally the sealant hould be placed in the mid temperature range. It appears the joint was routed before the sealant was placed? Just a guess. It's very good to rout (with a special router) any cracks to be sealed. 1, it removes old sealant, 2, it cleans dirt and other material from the surfaces, and it eats and drys the concrete. Alternative methods can work carefully scraping to the depth to be sealed, and using a wire brush on a gas powered lawn edger, etc. If the wrong sealant is used it won't properly stretch and compress and can shear off the concrete (appears yours did this) and if too stable it won't compress at all and may continue "pushing" the slab outward as the temp cycles. It would the ultimate if you could find a contractor that can do "rubberized hot pour" These guys know how to properly prep and place and are in and out. Gheck with the local road maintenance dept, or airport, When they have a contract going the workers love pick up work for beer money. You may want to look up cold pour also. If it were my driveway I'd first remove the de-laminating sealant and re seal with a quality product made for the purpose (of expansion and contraction). I'd then create a few new transverse expansion joints where you are seeing the most movement. Say, 3 cuts spaced 25' apart. A wheeled concrete "wet saw" can be used to cut across the slab and put e.j. sealant in there. depending on the width of cut (I'd shoot for 1/2") it will take a couple accurately cut passes, or, have a contractor rout any single blade width cuts. Contractor rental yards will have these various tools ar pretty reasonable rate, and contractors should have them already. The transverse cleats could be placed where the e'j locations are if it's found they are required later. Keeping the cracks sealed as you are is a great plan. Water intrusion will wash out the fines of the base sand/gravel and freeze thaw will accelerate concrete deterioation. Keep water draining away from the sides of the drive by grading to slope away. Don't fret about all this info as I really don't think the solution is going to be big budget.
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