Exactly what i thought.

The kid across the street from me is constantly buying wrecked cars from copar. He frequently asks me how to fix it and I tell or help him do it. Every now and then one comes in with frame damage or other structural problems and I just tell him it can't be done in the driveway.

He send it to his uncle who straightens the structure enough to align the car and it's back in the driveway to be finished.

There are literally dozens of people doing this within a couple miles of my house. I guarantee you nobody is certified including the uncle who straightens frames.

What you're describing does happen, but not often with actual collision repair facilities. Backyard hacks, Youtube guys (like the Russian bodyman everyone here was singing the praises of), sure. But Google "John Eagle Collision Center," and you'll see why the vast majority of real collision repair shops are not deviating from OEM repair procedures.

Also, there are plenty of independent shops that are OE certified for this brand or that brand. My friend owns a shop that is OE Toyota and Lexus certified. He's 2 miles from a Toyota dealer, too, but the Toyota dealer doesn't own their own body shop. They lease space to a body shop, and that shop uses the dealer's name. My friend's shop gets all of the good Toyota/Acura jobs. The dealership shop gets the leftovers.The OE's are not concerned with who fixes it, whether it's a dealer, an independent, a consolidator (like Gerber), etc. They care that it's done right, and one way to ensure that it is done right is by placing limitations on who can order certain parts.

So, if you're not an OE certified shop, you are a 'back-yard hack'? Not much middle ground with you.

There may be plenty of body shops around you, but there are not very many left in the rural areas. The insurance companies and their OE allies have made it nearly impossible to operate a body shop. With all of the demands and restrictions put on them, we only have a handful of certified shops left in our area. And it is going to get worse. One of our best shops just got his rebuilder's license with our help. In the coming year, they plan to move away from insurance work and on to rebuilding their own units. May be less money, but certainly much less hassle including some of what you speak. They can not possibly go through the certification process for all the brands out there and cannot be a 'specialized' shop either. Just not enough volume of any single brand. They just had to do the aluminum thing and most are chafing at the thought of doing even more 'certifications'.

No matter what you or VW or any one else says, the OEs cannot possibly ensure the quality of work being done to their cars outside of their warranty process. And frankly it's none of their business. That is the domain of the regulators. In the end, as long as there are auto wrecking yards, the parts will be available. So in some ways, the OE's position on structural parts could actually make the situation even worse. But they don't care about that, do they?

I do have one question; What is the hourly repair rate at your 'certified shops'?

No, that's not what I said, or what I meant. What I meant was the scenarios you were describing were going to happen at hack shops and by guys doing hillbilly work, not that any shop that isn't OE-certified are hacks. No quality collision repair shop is going to try to circumvent OE repair procedures by fixing a car that the OE says they shouldn't be fixing. I know plenty of shops that aren't OE certified that do great work. I also know that none of them is going to try to do structural repairs on a vehicle that the OE won't sell them the parts for. They don't want the liability involved if something goes wrong. Like it or not, OE certifications are the future in collision repair.

As far as used structural parts, those are rapidly becoming a thing of the past. For example, used quarter panels were an every day occurrence 20 years ago. Now? With vehicle construction and assembly techniques the factories are using, it's become virtually impossible to put a used quarter panel on most cars...at least, impossible to do it correctly.

OE certified shops typically do charge higher labor rates, sure, at least on the cars that they are OE certified to fix. It costs a lot of money in facility and equipment upgrades and technician training to be OE certified.

i work in a "VW CERTIFIED" body shop. the only one in all of SE Wisconsin, Hall VW Mazda collision center.
i don't know how other manufacturers certify their shops. but to get VW CERTIFIED you have to allow VW access to your repair records and they audit the records and personally inspect a few repairs you have done annually. . they also do surprise inspections of your body shop several times a year to see how cars and repairs are done in the shop.
you are required to have certain type of equipment in your shop and it has to be maintained and checked regularly with the manufacturer. the shop must be currently I-Car certified and ASE certified. the techs need to attend both VW online and I-Car training classes and they must have current certifications on welding, painting and frame work.

i have to check a estimate but i think the shop charges $62 or $65 hr.

You are working in an entirely different universe than I see. Since when does a car manufacturer have any say over a car's repair that they are not directly involved in? Your 'higher rate' at certified body repair shops will create it's own opportunities for others to step in. And I will say again; As long as there are salvage yards, there will be used parts available. Or do you think that the OEs will seek to control what parts they can sell?

I am not seeking to promote anything here, just opening up your eyes to what the rest of the world is doing. The OEs do not have the power to deny anyone the ability to repair anything. They can only deny some of the best possible parts available for a repair. But if you think for a single minute that their denying parts to someone will cause them to abandon that repair.......well, good luck with that.

Your OE's stance on those parts have more to do with control than with concern over a properly repaired vehicle. How else have they demonstrated any concern on that subject? But they have certainly demonstrated their desire to control the ability of anyone other than themselves to work on YOUR vehicle. This is just another step in the same light of the origin of this thread. The OEs have given up on earning our repair business. They cannot compete. So they are trying new ways to FORCE us into their 'stealerships'.

Holy smokes, I need to start sending cars to you! That is well below any of the body shops here in the sticks of southern Illinois. That is a very reasonable rate. Very reasonable.

Bill Jacobs Chevrolet, Joliet Illinois, had a $65.00 an hour labor rate 30 or more years ago.

Ins companies around here only pay $55.00 per hour,I know a few shop owners& they all say the same.Two of the owners are not doening ins work any more they say it don't pay enough.

that's BODY SHOP labor rates for basic steel repairs and basic refinish rates.
we charge i THINK $85 hr for frame work, $95 for mechanical repairs like a/c work and replacing basic easy to replace mechanical components and easy wiring harness repairs and over $100 to repair aluminum.
the SERVICE rate it i THINK, i don't see their repair orders, is $170 hr.

All of those sound about right nationally as well. There are a few areas with higher rates, but those are around what we see every day in our group.

I've spent more than half of my life directly involved with the collision repair industry on a daily basis. I am familiar with what goes on. I've got all of my ASE certs, a ton of I-CAR training, etc. in order to stay on top of what's going on in this rapidly changing industry. As I mentioned before, a shop does not have to be a dealership owned shop to be an OE certified shop. My friend's shop is a good example. I'm 100% in agreement with you about being forced to use a dealership. I never use one once the warranty is expired, unless it's for a recall. One thing to keep in mind is that the OE's who limit the sale of some of these parts do not necessarily do so on every make/model they sell. For example, Audi did it only on their cars with an aluminum structure (A8, TT, R8). Anyone could buy a rocker panel or a frame rail for an A4.

There are plenty of opportunities to use used parts without compromising a repair, and on plenty of cars, too. But deviating from OE repair procedures by using them when the OE specifically says not to is not an acceptable repair. Example - for years, GM has said not to use used quarter panels on most of their cars. This dates back at least 15 years, and has nothing to do with OE certification. Yet, there are hacks out there who will do it because they have no regard for the safety of the people in that vehicle. The people who design and build the car are the absolute authority on how to fix the car, as they should be. They definitely know more than some guy in his backyard garage who thinks that making the panel gaps even equates to a quality repair. That's a separate issue from whether or not the OE has a right to dictate who has access to the parts necessary to fix the car, or what the OE's motivation is for doing so.

well , you can get off your butt walk out tour car and start it then go back inside and have your coffee while it warms up , Its not like you couldn;t use the exercise. people are killing themselves and future generations with creature comforts . if you want to [censored] about something do it about something worth while , like stanard transmission in pick ups or the fact that that you cant buy just a plain pick up for work .

Not sure how you define plain, but the statement is incorrect. Talk to the fleet sales guy if that is what you want.

I've spent more than half of my life directly involved with the collision repair industry on a daily basis. I am familiar with what goes on. I've got all of my ASE certs, a ton of I-CAR training, etc. in order to stay on top of what's going on in this rapidly changing industry. As I mentioned before, a shop does not have to be a dealership owned shop to be an OE certified shop. My friend's shop is a good example. I'm 100% in agreement with you about being forced to use a dealership. I never use one once the warranty is expired, unless it's for a recall. One thing to keep in mind is that the OE's who limit the sale of some of these parts do not necessarily do so on every make/model they sell. For example, Audi did it only on their cars with an aluminum structure (A8, TT, R8). Anyone could buy a rocker panel or a frame rail for an A4.

There are plenty of opportunities to use used parts without compromising a repair, and on plenty of cars, too. But deviating from OE repair procedures by using them when the OE specifically says not to is not an acceptable repair. Example - for years, GM has said not to use used quarter panels on most of their cars. This dates back at least 15 years, and has nothing to do with OE certification. Yet, there are hacks out there who will do it because they have no regard for the safety of the people in that vehicle. The people who design and build the car are the absolute authority on how to fix the car, as they should be. They definitely know more than some guy in his backyard garage who thinks that making the panel gaps even equates to a quality repair. That's a separate issue from whether or not the OE has a right to dictate who has access to the parts necessary to fix the car, or what the OE's motivation is for doing so. [/quote]





i have spent my entire working life in bodyshops. my first real paying job was at 12yo sweeping floors in 1976. i lied about my age and told them i was 16. back then you could get away with things like that.
i reached my full I-Car certifications in the early 90's, probably 92-3. i have probably attended well over 200 training classes over the years. i currently attend about 1 a month with online training. the more high tech car become the more training classes i have to attend

there is nothing wrong with using salvage parts. as not a charger states FOLLOWING MANUFACTURERS repair procedures is 100% absolutely important.

some background on I-Car for the those not familiar with it. it is a national organization comprised of car manufacturers, insurance co and repair shop organizations. they assist on keeping shops updated and cars repaired properly.

it has been mentioned before. THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS regarding autobody repairs. this is covered thru LIABILITY LAWS. no one "DICTATES" on how cars are repaired. but if you stray away from factory repair procedures and someone get injured in a crash on your repaired car. be prepared to pay big $$$$ and spend years in courts. in the end the only people with $$$ in their pocket will be the lawyers.

this is where I-Car serves it purpose. they help establish thru working with the auto manufactures repair procedures called SOP aka standard operating procedures. some people might call this dictating on how a car is repaired. i myself see it differently. .with the insane $$ of cars these days owners keeping them longer and longer. certified shops and SOP's will give owners assurances that their car was repaired properly and will last a long life. also with rapidly evolving cars and new technology appearing daily making sure your repairer is up to date on SOP is important
.
the biggest thing is extensive uses of high strength and ultra high strength steel in cars. this requires specific techniques to safely repair properly. VW extensively uses high and ultra high strength steel in structural body parts. this is why they are sales restricted to only bodyshops.
in my opinion CERTIFIED bodyshops are the only one you should visit if you were in crash more than a minor fender bender. actually there are probably more certified independent bodyshops than dealer bodyshops

in MY OPINION in the future the car re builders will be regulated more and more as cars evolve. currently they are allowed to improperly repair and then sell AS IS thru auctions transferring liability to the guy who just bought it .in the future it wouldn't surprise me to see some of this repair liability being transferred back to the original repairer thru updating liability laws.


end of rant and back to the original topic.
something not mentioned earlier about subscription services. a lot of people don't know this, most of these services run on 3G wireless service. i know most VW built in 2018 and before are this way, a LOT of other manufacturers do also. 3G wireless will be eliminated soon. not only will you be looking at paying subscription services you might have to pay to install them AGAIN also.

Ever hear 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help you'? Do you believe that? How about 'I'm from VW, and you can't buy these parts for your own good'?

If the OE's primary interest was the safe repair of YOUR vehicles by anyone other than themselves, we would see them support that effort in some ways rather than simply saying "You can't have these parts".

We both have decades of experience in the auto repair industry. It appears that you feel that the OEs have our best interests in mind in this discussion so you 'trust' them and their decisions. I can say firmly that I have encountered very few (if any) times where an OE demonstrated any concern for anyone other than themselves. Every encounter is to their benefit. Their focus is to FORCE us to do business with them in the repair realm. Not to support affordable, competent, independent repair of their products. So, to say that they deny selling certain parts in order to protect the public from shoddy repairs flies in the face of all other evidence. They have shown time and again that they put their own interests above the public's.

yes the OEM's primary motivation is geared towards themselves.
the OEM's design and build the cars so they know best on how to repair them safely.
face it safety sells today. modern cars are extremely safe compared to older cars
. case in point this car, 2019 Tiguan, was towed into our shop about 1 1/2 years ago. someone ran a red light at a intersection in a 45mph speed zone.
there was a 12 yo boy in the passenger seat. other than bruises and scrapes he was basically unharmed.
the cowl is pushed in about 10". the center pillar is pushed in 6" yet the center pillar is basically straight. the floor and the roof are crushed.
if someone improperly repaired this car, mig welded on the ultra high strength steel center pillar and full side surround structure instead of squeeze type resistance welding that is required for proper repairs he would probably be dead today.

It's not that I trust them, I just trust them more than a guy (not you) who wings it and thinks he knows the best way to fix it when that way contradicts the OE repair procedures. If I were king, those parts would be available to anyone with the knowledge and equipment to fix the vehicle per OE repair procedures, but that's not how it works. I suspect that, in part, the OE wants plausible deniability when a repair shop fixes a vehicle in a manner that deviates from the OE repair procedure by being able to say that they limited access of the necessary parts to those shops that they knew to be qualified.

Why in the #ell would anyone want to be a dealer if EVERYONE could get EVERYTHING that being a dealership gets and currently protected by the manufacture for the dealer's investment of millions of $$$$?? If nothing is exclusive and protected for "dealers only" why be a dealer with overhead, employees to pay, parts to stock, service to provide, etc., Just open a shop in your garage or driveway and have access to EVERYTHING the manufacture has and at dealer prices. The original subject was about paying a subscription fee for a "service" for wifi based long range remote start which IMO is no different than a subscription for SiriusXM or any other service or GPS map updating. Do you think that "free" close range remote start is going to go away or become a subscription based option?? Don't worry some manufacture will still offer it baked into the suggest retail price as "free" and continue to force others to also do so. No one is stopping anyone from working on anything they want to.............just don't ask to buy factory direct at dealer cost, just go and find those cheaply made knock off Pacific Rim items that are stolen from USA and other manufactures. Wow has no one ever heard of patents??? Whew I think I feel better