Hi all

I was wondering if anyone has any successful builds for this application they could point me to, the car intended for historic pre '66 touring car racing.
I am building a car to race in a class , and at the moment it would be prudent to think I need to stick to the model year correct numbers matching parts for the car from the era (64 Belvedere post car) So correct 426 W block , Max Wedge heads, the manifold I think I might have some leeway with, but if not, I can resort to the single 4 barrel MW 2406185 nascar manifold I'm not sure , but I think I might be limited to 7000rpm in the classes I wish to race in.
I have a lead on a set of ported original date code correct Max Wedge heads, I hope they arent too hogged out though..
I was wondering what cam and bottom end feaures like rods and pistons I should shoot for , I am most centred on cam choice as that is going to ultimately decide what the character of the engine is like. I would like a Molnar rod and a Diamond piston, they each say they are capable of handling in excess of 1000hp, so they 650 or so that I am shooting for with this engine should be a walk in the park..
If I need to go dry sump I will , but I hope I can get away with a good milodon oil system , their pan and external pump with a cooler and external filter, but dry sump is not that much more expensive when you tally everything up!
What combos have worked well for people in the past? Who builds a good engine whose main focus is track racing engines, as I notice most builders are orientated towards drag racing setups? As I will probably just give the whole job to a competent builder in that area, I just like to learn stuff when I go thru a process.

I would really like to hear some constructive comments!

Do the rules require stock displacement? A 4.25 stroker crank will give you a much larger torque curve and the engine will still look 100% original. The larger displacement will make those MW heads work better down low and you'll have more wiggle room for the cam design with a bigger engine. Is there a limit on compression ratio or a gasolene rule?

Pretty much I have to keep the date / model correct block and heads, but I can fit whatever components I want inside, can only increase bore by 1.5mm - sleeving permitted. I can remove metal from the head, but I am not allowed to add, save for valve seats. I think I can use an aftermarket manifold as long as it is 'relevant to the period' On second glance dry sump setups are no bueno.
Fuels are free as long as it is unleaded racing fuel, I would envisage using at least 100 octane racing unleaded.

The oil pan choice should be obvious with the Milodon road race pan. It has plenty of baffles to keep the pickup covered. I really don't think the cross-ram would work without major tuning and modifications. The Nascar deal would be the better choice if you can find one because they do pop up once in a while for sale.
There are still some old guys still alive that used race those old cars turning left and right so they might be able to give you some parts information

Gus

Yes, thats pretty much a given at this point,.,, and Im only allowed to run 4 venturis at max anyway.

But the burning question is compression (I was thinking 12:1 at least) But given I am allowed to go to .60 over- it is hard to find pistons for that size! (4.310) and there is nothing about stroke so I guess I will go up to 4.150 if I can get away with it.

And the second (well most important thing really) is choice of camshaft , as the heads will be flowing around 300cfm @ 500 lift I am told, I need something that has ommph up top but still carries torque from lowdown, say you might dip to 2000 after a gear change - it needs to haul the mail but not be like a high winding gasser motor that makes nothing under 4000 ,.. Rev limit I think is 7000 , and that sounds about right to me.

Carb will be a 4150 modded with all the good bits for trackwork, I'm not messing around with carbs myself as although I can do it, someone who knows what they are doing will eliminate any trace of bogging or hesitation and having that happen during a race could really ruin ones day.

Can anyone recommend a builder who deals in road and circle track engine frequently / exclusively? doesnt matter where in the country they are located..

I think I will go for TTI 2" primary headers with the 3.5" collector and everyone who has fitted them speaks highly of them, and they specialise in Mopar exhaust. I think 2" is the best compromise as the bigger 2 1'4" ones kill too much torque down low without the hassles of the slip joints on the larger models..

Anyway - keep on Moparing Mopar Mopurists

Look at using a 4.25 stroke crank with BB Chevy rod journal sizes and a 7.100 long H or I beam steel rod with the.990 pin size
I built a pump gas low deck (400 block) stroker motor to race the black guys in L.A. on the street with a low deck Eddy dual plane six pack intake with 1970 440 six pack carbs. It was bored to 4.375 and the first crank had 4.250 stroke with a set of 6.800 long BB Chevy H beam steel rods, Ross dished pistons to get 9.12 to 1 compression ration with a set of 906 iron heads that had 84.00 CC
That motor made peak torque 644 Ft. Lb. at 4500 RPM and peak power 612 HP at 5500 RPM using CA pump swill in 2002 when I dyno it.
That Stupid Motor would make my car(1971 Duster weighing 3450 Lbs. with me in it, full interior and 3.0 inch exhaust system to the rear bumper) run quicker and faster by shifting it above 7000 RPM
I ended up later swapping the heads to a set of CNC ported 440 intake size ports Eddy RPM heads and swap the crank to a 4.300 stroke to raise the compression to 10.39 to 1 at zero deck height. The cam was a Comp Cams custom grind solid roller that was 260 @ .050 on the intake lobes with .420 lobe lift and 266 degrees @.050 on the exhaust lobes with .409 lobe lift, I ended up using a set of Harland Sharp single shaft rocker arms that had 1,65 actual ratio. The cam was ground on a 108 LSA installed 2 degrees advances (106.5 to 107 BTDC, dang timing set ) on the intake lobes
That motor exceeded my expectations over and over
It ended up with a set of Indy M.W. SR heads with a Indy 400-3 intake and a 1050 CFM Holley Dominator carb, List# 9375 , non HP on the last upgrade

Once you have your parts picked out, a good drag race engine builder won’t have an issue building your engine.

If you can’t use a roller go a mushroom lifter if you can.

If you're running a tall deck block, I would go to a 4.375 or 4.5 crankshaft, if legal. No reason to give up cubic inches and it will reduce your RPM, which will benefit everywhere (maincaps, bearings, oiling, valvetrain, etc) Diamond will make whatever pistons you want, if you can run good fuel, 12 or 13:1 will be easy with a lightweight flat top or moderately dished piston. Managing the torque will be the primary problem, tire life is going to be horrible. I would sit down with the rule book and have a good think and then afterwards you can brainstorm with Mike Jones about a proper camshaft for good drivability. S/F....Ken M

Couple of items stand out to me:

You will never be much below 4000 on the track
A stroker RB built big CR will have way more low end torque than you will ever be able to put to the track
You will actually want to use the cam choice to dial back the torque, and move the power band upwards
Almost all overtaking will be at the top end, before braking, if you are passing anybody exiting a corner, they are a dog to begin with
If you are running just against the clock, no overtaking, you can lower your power curve a tad.

[/quote]
Couple of items stand out to me:

You will never be much below 4000 on the track
A stroker RB built big CR will have way more low end torque than you will ever be able to put to the track
You will actually want to use the cam choice to dial back the torque, and move the power band upwards
Almost all overtaking will be at the top end, before braking, if you are passing anybody exiting a corner, they are a dog to begin with
If you are running just against the clock, no overtaking, you can lower your power curve a tad.

[/quote]

Well thanks for being communicative guys , I hasnt come up with that myself (yet)
Where can I find this Mike Young guy when he's at home?
Tyres are the enemy when it comes to circuit racing..

Ciao ciao, well for now.

Tom.

I'm seeing comments from folks that have obviously never road raced a big block mopar. Probably a few that haven't road raced at all.

If you want this engine to last, you'll want to keep it stock bore/stroke and put a good mild roller cam that pulls to 6500rpm tops. Get the heads and induction to support the cam and breathe well. You shouldn't need more than 450-500hp to the ground, beyond that and you'll start having driveline AND chassis reliability issues. We tried the 7500rpm dopey motor and it was stupid. We tossed that cam after 1 race.
If properly geared, you'll be setting the car to hit peak RPM in 4th gear on the fastest part of the track. That'll put you in 3rd or 4th most of the way around most tracks from 2500-5000 rpms most of the time and to red line MAYBE 5-6 times in a lap. You lose an amazing amount of time per lap shifting. Unless you have a paddle shifted 8 speed, try to not shift. We have the advantage of torque. You'll need wicked brakes and the low end to grunt out of the corners most lighter cars can finesse their way through. It gives you the advantage of running different lines that can catch other drivers off guard.

The only thing is in the era I'm racing in , there are sideoiler galaxies that claim to have 600hp

Very cool Shoomin!

Us Brits know a bit about track racing and Yanks lol...

Most historic classes here are very strict on engine size!
A 427ci centre-oiler is 427 plus one overbore...

I just did a 427 'standard bore' for an early Galaxie a 1963 centre-oiler with medium riser heads.
They are over-bored 406ci's, so don't like over-boring anyways.
Cast crank and Lemans rods and rev to 7000rpm's.

I'm guessing a 426 maxie wedge will be very competitive in stockish form?

I have a 1962 413 max wedge engine here for a similar build also...
Big ports can hurt power curves on race tracks with corners...

I also have the 1969 Weslake 426ci wedge engine that was built for circuit racing.
Real shame it was never put into production.
Ovalport heads and a very sexy Edelbrock STR intake.

Makes the Mopar M1 'max wedge' intake look small lol...

If you is going stroker then a 511 kit is super cool!
That's the biggest you can go with a standard internal oil-pick-up system.

4.250 crank with 7.100 rods and custom pistons I suppose?

This is my mates 511ci 'daily driver' with a 950 HP Holley carb.
Does 15 to the gallon, with 600hp and 'goes off the clock' with ease...

Yep that's a dual-plane intake manifold with standard port heads...

I know that Brandon at '440 SOURCE' does a 526ci kit for the 426 block, WOW!!!

Mopars don't do so well at Goodwood UK!

Too much power at Goodwood...

You can do this with 1000hp and rear engined lol...

Lol, that guy needs a mintie I think! (wasn't Rowan Atkinson of Mr Bean fame driving that Valiant? Maybe he should stick to Minis I think, perhaps it's revenge from all those poor Reliant Robins)

I'm in Australia, but I am really taken by all the vintage racing I've been watching during the pandemic, If you're not having fun - you're not doing it properly!

Goodwood would be the pinnacle, but I don't really have any connections in the british aristocrisy (nope, already checked familytree.com, though I hear thru the FBI that there might be a vacancy in the princehood upcoming following an ongoing investigation into a certain guy who claims he doesn't sweat - so there's that) so I doubt I would ever get invited to race there..

Anyway, they are still blue at us over the Ashes, so no chance now..

Warm beer...

As we all know the 'Max Wedge' is a very rare beast indeed!

Guys still race them in the USofA but they are nearly 60 years old now.

Most folks are happy to own one but they certainly would not race one, TOO RARE!

Then you have the 1962 FUGLY car problem to deal with lol...

But in 63 and 64 'the 426 era', things got a lot better...

I actually like the look of the 62, and reckon it was one of Virgil Exner's better designs .. Would love to own one, I like the divisiveness of it - it forces people to think ,rather than universally accepted cars like Mustangs or Corvettes etc

I thought I made it abundantly clear at the start that the car I intend to build IS NOT an original Max Wedge car, but a plain jane poverty spec ordinary old Plymouth.. Original would add an extra $140k to the bill, and I wouldnt do it anyway personally.

These old racecars are getting so rare and valuable that they are going to have to start letting people build replicas or they are going to end up with empty grids because the new people cant afford them but could afford to build a replica and the existing people arent taking any chances with their valauble assets.

Tricky situation for any pre 64 track car, is the 'cost' and its rarity.

What was once common is now rare and expensive!

I know a Guy who builds pre 64 track cars for a living.
He says ''he can build a Mustang for half the price of a Mopar''...

So Mopars in circuit racing are a very rare beast indeed...

They were never built before the T/A's of 1970 (only Nascars) as you know.

Drag racing 'was the scene' in the 60's for Mopars.

Good luck in all you do Shoomin!