What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
#2950695
08/05/21 12:35 PM
08/05/21 12:35 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697 Renton Wa
topfueldart
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697
Renton Wa
|
Just an open discussion, what would you select for components, and how far do you think you could go. Basically considering bolt on engine changes only, no gear change or big weight reduction.
Full weight 70 Challenger, probably 3600 with driver or so. Currently has run a best of 11.51 @ 117, 1.65ish 60. There's definitely more in the 60, but maybe a couple tenths faster at best.
Combo is as follows.
440, Ross flattops, pump gas, probably high 10:s to 1 compression, H Beams, base 440 source heads, zero porting, stock rocker arms, Comp XE294 hydraulic flat tappet, Torker 2 intake, 950 HP, hooker comp headers, 1 3/4?, 4000ish stall 9.5 PTC converter, 4.30's, 30 inch drag radial.
My initial thoughts would be trick flow 240's, their matching single plane, solid roller in the 260's @ 50, (like the Comp 263/270, .650 unit), 1 7/8ths or 2 inch primary header.
CNC the Stealths instead? TF 270's? Indy -1's? Victors? Needs dual quads and a tunnel ram to break 600? Just looking for opinions, assuming it will need 625ish to go low 10's at 3600, is this even attainable with an 11:1 440 and good cylinder heads on pump gas?
Thanks all!
11.48 @ 120 with a 1.80 60' 318, stock 1.88 heads, stock 904, Pump Gas, 13 lbs of boost.
9.94 @ 134, 318 on pump gas, 14 lbs w/ Eddies, transbrake 727, 3600 lbs, 3.54 gear and 28's.
|
|
|
Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: topfueldart]
#2950697
08/05/21 12:38 PM
08/05/21 12:38 PM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,414 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,414
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
|
440 block, 440Source rotating assembly for 526 cubes w/10.7:1 compression, 440Source girdle, ARP2000 bolts, Indy 325 heads fully ported with oversized 2.25 intake valves. Good oil pan and pump, and a 1050 4150 carb should put you right at 10.20-10.0...We have a big B-body easily that heavy running 10.40's on little 10 slicks that way...Traction is always an issue...
Forgot to mention, external oiling...
Last edited by Dragula; 08/05/21 01:18 PM.
|
|
|
Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: AndyF]
#2950705
08/05/21 01:02 PM
08/05/21 01:02 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697 Renton Wa
topfueldart
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697
Renton Wa
|
The TF240 heads are good for 600 hp out of the box but everything else needs to be properly matched. Your compression ratio will most likely go up so you need to figure it out before you order parts. Are you willing to run race gas? You might need it with the TF heads. Are you running open headers? Figure out what your target trap speed is and work backwards to figure out the trap RPM and then see where that puts you for the camshaft. Quick math shows 6850 RPM at 135 with 5% slip. I'd guess 135 is pretty optimistic for this combo, and 132 would be more reasonable, and that shows 6677. The 263/270 Comp RX296R-8 is a 4000-6500 powerband, and 110 fuel is not out of the question if needed.
11.48 @ 120 with a 1.80 60' 318, stock 1.88 heads, stock 904, Pump Gas, 13 lbs of boost.
9.94 @ 134, 318 on pump gas, 14 lbs w/ Eddies, transbrake 727, 3600 lbs, 3.54 gear and 28's.
|
|
|
Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: topfueldart]
#2950722
08/05/21 01:56 PM
08/05/21 01:56 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,071 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,071
Oregon
|
The TF240 heads are good for 600 hp out of the box but everything else needs to be properly matched. Your compression ratio will most likely go up so you need to figure it out before you order parts. Are you willing to run race gas? You might need it with the TF heads. Are you running open headers? Figure out what your target trap speed is and work backwards to figure out the trap RPM and then see where that puts you for the camshaft. Quick math shows 6850 RPM at 135 with 5% slip. I'd guess 135 is pretty optimistic for this combo, and 132 would be more reasonable, and that shows 6677. The 263/270 Comp RX296R-8 is a 4000-6500 powerband, and 110 fuel is not out of the question if needed. I think a 263/270 cam is too big for TF240 head on a 440 at 6500 rpm but Dwayne would be a better person to ask. I used a Comp 264/268 with TF240 heads in a pump gas 470 to make over 700 hp. You might want to copy some stuff from that engine combo. A ported intake manifold was key to making power with the TF heads and the cam couldn't be too big. The TF heads are very efficient and if you use too big of a cam it kills the power.
|
|
|
Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: AndyF]
#2950726
08/05/21 02:19 PM
08/05/21 02:19 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,700 Wichita
GY3
master
|
master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,700
Wichita
|
250 shot of spray.
We went from 11.30's regularly to 10.0's @ 3,700 lbs.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
|
|
|
Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: topfueldart]
#2950728
08/05/21 02:26 PM
08/05/21 02:26 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,776 Keymar, MD
DusterKid
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,776
Keymar, MD
|
Your best option would be to build a stroker short block (I'd say 512) and use your current 440 source heads. The stock 440 source heads would be a choke point but I think would be the cheapest way to get into the 10s. If you have extra coin to spend upgrade to the TF 240 or the 270 depending on which route you want to go. My car weighs 3120 with me. I ran 10.80-10.90s with 440, stealth heads, 590 cam, 750 carb, speed pro flat tops (mid 10s:1 compression). I have since switched to a 440 with ross pistons 10.9:1, 557 cam, 850 carb and TF 240s. Typically the car runs 10.60-10.70s, been a best of 10.49. Tried TTI 1 3/4" and now using Hooker 2" fenderwell headers with a 6" muffler. Went from a Weiand single plane intake to a Victor 440 and didn't notice much gain there either. I shift at 6000 and try to cross the strip around 6200-6300. I just don't think your going to get low 10s with a stock stroke 440 with that low of compression in that heavy of a car.
Last edited by DusterKid; 08/05/21 02:30 PM.
|
|
|
Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: topfueldart]
#2950740
08/05/21 03:15 PM
08/05/21 03:15 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,071 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,071
Oregon
|
My pump gas 470 made more than 700 hp with out of the box TF240 heads so I'd think you could do the same if you picked the same parts. Solid roller cam, ported intake, good carb (950 HP is probably too small for 700 hp but should be okay for 600), good headers, good ignition. https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/t...etors-440-stroker-search-ultimate-power/600 hp with 3600 lbs is enough to go lower 10's at 130. 700 hp at 3600 lbs would be enough to push you into the high 9's. That only applies if the chassis really good and of course you need the correct converter, gears, tires, etc. I don't think there would be any problem making 650+ with your short block and TF240 heads but you need to pick the correct cam, need good rocker arms and I'd highly recommend porting the intake. Once you have 650 hp you'll have to figure out how to get the car to hook and launch.
|
|
|
Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: AndyF]
#2950770
08/05/21 04:50 PM
08/05/21 04:50 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,166 CT
GTX MATT
master
|
master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,166
CT
|
This was a build for a buddys 1968 Satelite .055 over 1966 440 block NOS cast crank--3.75 stroke--internal balance--no Mallory metal Eagle 6.76 rods for .990 pins JE Flat top piston--.025 in the hole--CR 10.5 to 1--Runs on 93 oct pump gas Racer Brown Solid lifter flat tappet cam--STX-21--272*/272*-.560"/.560" Edelbrock Performer RPM heads with a decent port job and a Red CC inner spring added--shaved .040 Victor Intake w 1000CFM Carb Shop Carb-4150 Hooker competition headers--1 7/8" primary tubes Dynamic 9 1/2" TQ Converter Dana 60 W/Spool and 4.10 Gear set 3600# SS Springs w/ no snubber or anything else 29x 10.5" MT stiff side wall slicks drivers seat--heater delete full C/M cage-- aprox 3500# w driver 10.29 at 129.xx MPH--1.39 60ft https://board.moparts.org/ubbthread...e-440-stock-stroke-10-second-combos.htmlOne day id like to try the trick flow heads with the STX-21 and see if it runs anything like the combo above. I don’t know the car or poster but it is a stock stroke pump gas low 10 second combo in your weight range.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
|
|
|
Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: GTX MATT]
#2950783
08/05/21 05:37 PM
08/05/21 05:37 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,470 Sydney,Australia
tex013
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,470
Sydney,Australia
|
505ci . Good converter . 4.10 gear CNC Stealth .4150 HP100 carb , Eddy Victor . So;id ft .600 lift . 3700lbs . 10.50 best . 11:1 pump gas exhaust to diff .28" radial . 6000 shift . Put TF270 , Eddy Super Victor , 4500 (1050) . 10.25s . had to shift @ 6500 with better heads/more HP TQ Best sixty is 1.42 Stock block gave up . Put TF270 top end on my 440 with sft , .520 nett lift . 10.70
Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 . New best MPH 130.32 Finally fitted a solid cam, stepped it up a bit more 3690lbs through the mufflers New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm Power by Tex's Automotive
|
|
|
Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: GTX MATT]
#2950791
08/05/21 06:12 PM
08/05/21 06:12 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697 Renton Wa
topfueldart
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697
Renton Wa
|
This was a build for a buddys 1968 Satelite
.055 over 1966 440 block NOS cast crank--3.75 stroke--internal balance--no Mallory metal Eagle 6.76 rods for .990 pins JE Flat top piston--.025 in the hole--CR 10.5 to 1--Runs on 93 oct pump gas Racer Brown Solid lifter flat tappet cam--STX-21--272*/272*-.560"/.560" Edelbrock Performer RPM heads with a decent port job and a Red CC inner spring added--shaved .040 Victor Intake w 1000CFM Carb Shop Carb-4150 Hooker competition headers--1 7/8" primary tubes Dynamic 9 1/2" TQ Converter Dana 60 W/Spool and 4.10 Gear set 3600# SS Springs w/ no snubber or anything else 29x 10.5" MT stiff side wall slicks drivers seat--heater delete full C/M cage-- aprox 3500# w driver
10.29 at 129.xx MPH--1.39 60ft
[/URL] https://board.moparts.org/ubbthread...e-440-stock-stroke-10-second-combos.html Good info here, thanks
11.48 @ 120 with a 1.80 60' 318, stock 1.88 heads, stock 904, Pump Gas, 13 lbs of boost.
9.94 @ 134, 318 on pump gas, 14 lbs w/ Eddies, transbrake 727, 3600 lbs, 3.54 gear and 28's.
|
|
|
Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: AndyF]
#2950792
08/05/21 06:14 PM
08/05/21 06:14 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697 Renton Wa
topfueldart
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697
Renton Wa
|
My pump gas 470 made more than 700 hp with out of the box TF240 heads so I'd think you could do the same if you picked the same parts. Solid roller cam, ported intake, good carb (950 HP is probably too small for 700 hp but should be okay for 600), good headers, good ignition. https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/t...etors-440-stroker-search-ultimate-power/600 hp with 3600 lbs is enough to go lower 10's at 130. 700 hp at 3600 lbs would be enough to push you into the high 9's. That only applies if the chassis really good and of course you need the correct converter, gears, tires, etc. I don't think there would be any problem making 650+ with your short block and TF240 heads but you need to pick the correct cam, need good rocker arms and I'd highly recommend porting the intake. Once you have 650 hp you'll have to figure out how to get the car to hook and launch. Thanks for the info, I was hoping you would have some input. Being at a point where basically everything in the top end would be replaced makes the decision a bit difficult, as its tempting to go with something that would use an offset rocker, but these 240's seem tough to beat for the money based on your numbers.
11.48 @ 120 with a 1.80 60' 318, stock 1.88 heads, stock 904, Pump Gas, 13 lbs of boost.
9.94 @ 134, 318 on pump gas, 14 lbs w/ Eddies, transbrake 727, 3600 lbs, 3.54 gear and 28's.
|
|
|
Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: 66er]
#2950801
08/05/21 07:05 PM
08/05/21 07:05 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514
So. Burlington, Vt.
|
At 3600lbs, to go from 117mph to 132mph the moroso chart shows you need to make almost another 200hp.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
|
|
|
Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: topfueldart]
#2950860
08/05/21 09:20 PM
08/05/21 09:20 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 883 Missouri
jwb123
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 883
Missouri
|
I think you maybe falling into it is all in the engine trap. If you are wanting to go from high 11's to low 10's think about what else needs changed on the car to use the extra 150HP or so you will need to make. Both in terms of reliability and consistency I have a friendly competition with several friends over the years, I have seen their engines on the dyno, and all make more power than me, but they have yet to out run me in a heads up race. You mentioned you had a slow 60foot, don't waste money on engine mods until you fix the 60 foot. More power just may make them worse not that much better. The biggest component in my experience when wanting to jump a few tenths, is the converter. I have thrashed and tuned my engine, knowing I was making it run better, the mph improved, but the ET and 60 foot did not, converter fixed it all. I built a fresh engine and messed with it for a whole season, a new converter picked it up 4 tenths. Adjustable shocks on all corners is another thing that not only get you performance, it also makes the car drive so much better when tuned correctly. A drag car is a package, look up the old direct connection recommendations for performance levels, they listed lots of chassis improvements, as well as engine improvements.
|
|
|
Re: What would you do? Going from 11.5 to low 10's with a 440
[Re: AndyF]
#2950872
08/05/21 09:42 PM
08/05/21 09:42 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,287 Morrow, OH
markz528
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,287
Morrow, OH
|
The TF240 heads are good for 600 hp out of the box but everything else needs to be properly matched. Your compression ratio will most likely go up so you need to figure it out before you order parts. Are you willing to run race gas? You might need it with the TF heads. Are you running open headers? Figure out what your target trap speed is and work backwards to figure out the trap RPM and then see where that puts you for the camshaft. Me thinks you need to be in the 675 hp range. Andy - you don't think the TF270 would be a better choice? I'm hoping to go low 10's in my 3800 - 3900 lb GTX (if I ever get it done). It made 713 hp 707 torque with TF 270 heads. Street/strip car.
Last edited by markz528; 08/05/21 09:42 PM.
67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph 67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph 69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
|
|
|
|
|