Hemi Rocker adjustment
#2944545
07/18/21 12:37 PM
07/18/21 12:37 PM
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Wolfe440
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1969 426 Hemi. Have a Comp Cam Hydraulic Thumpr roller cam and lifters, using stock rockers, have 40lbs of oil pressure at idle.
Problem is I am getting some lifter tapping across engine. Talked to Comp Cams, need .020 to .040 preload. Turned engine to correct position to adjust each rocker, first they said go to zero lash and half turn.
That helped a bit but still have tapping, then they recommend adjustment zero lash and go one full turn, I tried that and still have some tapping, it was a small improvement.
Now they are saying with this particular cam and lifters I have go to zero lash and then go at least one and a quarter turn.
I'm getting a bit nervous going that much. I myself in the past with other motors (other then Hemi) never had to adjust preload on a hydraulic that far, usually half a turn max.
Are the factory adjusters on a Hemi a finer thread and require that much turning?
Thanks, Wolf
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: NITROUSN]
#2944564
07/18/21 02:11 PM
07/18/21 02:11 PM
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Wolfe440
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Are the adjuster screws 3/8 fine thread? If so that would equate to .0416 per turn. So 1 1/4 turns come out to .0520 preload. They claim most lifters have up to .200 of adjustment for preload. If the Cam and lifter company is suggesting this I guess it is worth a try. Thank You for that info. I will pop the covers off and find out what the adjuster thread is. I noticed I didn't do the sequence correctly, I should be doing exhaust closes and intake starts to open on cyl 1 and then adjust both rockers on cyl 6, then do the same on 8 & adj 5, then 4 & adj 7 etc...etc. I'm going to do this over again with the correct sequence and see what 1 1/4 gives me. Thank You!
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: NITROUSN]
#2944577
07/18/21 02:50 PM
07/18/21 02:50 PM
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Wolfe440
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I would adjust them one cylinder at a time just like comp cam suggests. Mopar had a lash setting chart. I used to do it by the chart however they claim cam profiles have changed and you need to be sure you are setting the lash on the base circle of the cam. This should be your lifters and instructions. Adjustment Ok, I will stay with the Comp instructions and do one cylinder at a time like I have been. Finding the thread pitch on the adjusters is first thing tomorrow. Good stuff...thx!
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: Wolfe440]
#2944582
07/18/21 03:19 PM
07/18/21 03:19 PM
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John_Kunkel
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That helped a bit but still have tapping, then they recommend adjustment zero lash and go one full turn, I tried that and still have some tapping, it was a small improvement.
Could be a bad lifter right out of the box.
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2944583
07/18/21 03:40 PM
07/18/21 03:40 PM
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That helped a bit but still have tapping, then they recommend adjustment zero lash and go one full turn, I tried that and still have some tapping, it was a small improvement.
Could be a bad lifter right out of the box. I was just going to suggest that. He needs to re-lash all of them and run it. If it keeps making noise again re-lash and write down which ones changed. If this keeps happening on the same one or more there could be a cam and lifter failure.
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2944594
07/18/21 04:20 PM
07/18/21 04:20 PM
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Wolfe440
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That helped a bit but still have tapping, then they recommend adjustment zero lash and go one full turn, I tried that and still have some tapping, it was a small improvement.
Could be a bad lifter right out of the box. Its crossed my mind. The motor was built and ran on a dyno, the shop says they didn't hear any lifter tapping. The motor then sat for a year in the shop, I turned it over by hand a couple of times a month. I got to identify adjuster threads so I at least know how much preload is one turn. In the end if it takes me to 1 1/4 turn and I still have problems, I will go for a new set of lifters. Thx..
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: Wolfe440]
#2944615
07/18/21 05:55 PM
07/18/21 05:55 PM
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NITROUSN
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Thank You for that info. I will pop the covers off and find out what the adjuster thread is. I noticed I didn't do the sequence correctly, I should be doing exhaust closes and intake starts to open on cyl 1 and then adjust both rockers on cyl 6, then do the same on 8 & adj 5, then 4 & adj 7 etc...etc.
I'm going to do this over again with the correct sequence and see what 1 1/4 gives me. You need to stay on the same cylinder and adjust the valves on that cylinder and move on to the next. Do not observe the valve closings/openings on one cylinder and adjust a different cylinder.
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: TJP]
#2944675
07/18/21 09:10 PM
07/18/21 09:10 PM
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TJP
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The method I was taught many years ago to has never failed me. EO/IC rule (Exhaust Opening and Intake Closing). using a remote starter button/ switch to bump the motor around Set the intake valve when the exhaust valve is beginning to open. This will put the intake lifter at the base circle which is where you want it to be. Then set the exhaust valve when the intake valve is almost closed. I have trouble remembering the above, so I wrote it on a piece of cardboard and prop it up for referencing as I adjust each valve If adjusting hydraulics, loosen the adjuster until there is noticeable play between the rocker and pushrod / valve While rolling the pushrod between two finger tips, begin slowly tightening the adjuster. Just as you hit Zero lash you will feel a slight but distinct resistance. You can loosen a 1/4 turn or so and retighten to confirm several times until you get the "hang" of it. The above resistance will be felt even with empty lifters. You will also note the " free play" is gone. From that point, depending on adjusters threads per inch determines how far to tighten. Most are 3/8 x 24. So if one divides 1inch by 24 =.0416" per turn. All camshaft Manufacturers' I am aware of recommend. 0.020" to .040" preload. With the above, I have always used 1/2 turn beyond zero lash. I also agree with starting at the front of the motor, and do each valve working towards the back. Then repeat the process on the other side
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: cudachas]
#2944716
07/18/21 11:18 PM
07/18/21 11:18 PM
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cudaman1969
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I had similar issues with mine , turned out four adjusters were tapping the baffles in my stock covers. Not sure what covers you have but if there stockers look for witness marks on the baffles.Good luck! Hemi covers don’t have baffles I ran mine (440 & 383) at zero lash + 1/4 turn, no tap,
Last edited by cudaman1969; 07/18/21 11:23 PM.
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: cudaman1969]
#2944726
07/18/21 11:58 PM
07/18/21 11:58 PM
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DAYCLONA
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Hemi covers don’t have baffles Uhhhh....yeah they do....
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#2944784
07/19/21 10:39 AM
07/19/21 10:39 AM
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TJP
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Hemi covers don’t have baffles on Uhhhh....yeah they do.... and have re-tacked more than one spot weld on them. Another thought couple of thoughts? Are you sure it's a lifter tick and not an exhaust leak ? a small one can sometimes mimic lifter noise I am not sure how pronounced the noise is but some hemis are known to make a bit more valvetrain noise keep us posted
Last edited by TJP; 07/19/21 10:39 AM.
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: calrobb2000]
#2944786
07/19/21 10:45 AM
07/19/21 10:45 AM
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Wolfe440
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if this is a cam with fast ramps you are prob going to have some noise !
Its a roller, I was hoping it would be quiet. Its a Comp Cam 24 600 11 Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.536 in. Advertised Intake Duration: 283
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: NITROUSN]
#2944801
07/19/21 12:07 PM
07/19/21 12:07 PM
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Wolfe440
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Are the adjuster screws 3/8 fine thread? If so that would equate to .0416 per turn. So 1 1/4 turns come out to .0520 preload. They claim most lifters have up to .200 of adjustment for preload. If the Cam and lifter company is suggesting this I guess it is worth a try. Pulled an adjuster this morning and they are 3/8 fine thread, they're in fact a 3/8 - 24 thread. I will go with a final 1 1/4 turn and see if it helps. Thx
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: Wolfe440]
#2944952
07/19/21 08:57 PM
07/19/21 08:57 PM
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TJP
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Are the adjuster screws 3/8 fine thread? If so that would equate to .0416 per turn. So 1 1/4 turns come out to .0520 preload. They claim most lifters have up to .200 of adjustment for preload. If the Cam and lifter company is suggesting this I guess it is worth a try. Pulled an adjuster this morning and they are 3/8 fine thread, they're in fact a 3/8 - 24 thread. I will go with a final 1 1/4 turn and see if it helps. Thx That's a bit too much preload IMO BTW, There's an old saying about valves, It's better to hear them than to smell them
Last edited by TJP; 07/19/21 08:58 PM.
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: Wolfe440]
#2945097
07/20/21 10:46 AM
07/20/21 10:46 AM
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randavis
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I'm having a similar problem with my 440 based 511. The engine builder speced a custom grind Comp cam. I had wanted hydraulic rollers due to less maintenance. Duration @ .050 Intake 243 Exhaust 251, 595 lift on 113 ICL using 1.6 Hughes roller tip rockers. When I started it up, it sounded like solids that were loose. I took the engine back out of the car and took it back to him. He pulled the heads and took them apart and checked everything. He has them adjusted 1-1/2 turns. Nothing wrong. I put the engine back in the car and it was just as noisy as before. I loaded the car onto my buddy's trailer and we drove the 120 miles to his shop. When I started it, he was surprised at how noisy it was. We decided to change to solid roller lifters, as he said that he was sure they would be quieter when properly adjusted. The car is at his place now, but he just had knee surgery. I don't know how long before the car will be ready. I did find a tech sheet on Comp Cam's web site that stated that the hydraulic rollers tended to be noisy.
I don't know if your issue could be related or not. This came to mind when I read what you have going on.
Last edited by randavis; 07/20/21 10:47 AM.
74 Challenger, bought it new. In 1978 I replaced the original 318 with a 446 and 727. Mild cam, Jardine headers, and Holley Sniper EFI. New engine! 511" RB, Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, Eagle rotating assy, Comp hyd roller cam, Doug's 2" headers.
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: randavis]
#2945143
07/20/21 12:06 PM
07/20/21 12:06 PM
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Wolfe440
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I'm having a similar problem with my 440 based 511. The engine builder speced a custom grind Comp cam. I had wanted hydraulic rollers due to less maintenance. Duration @ .050 Intake 243 Exhaust 251, 595 lift on 113 ICL using 1.6 Hughes roller tip rockers. When I started it up, it sounded like solids that were loose. I took the engine back out of the car and took it back to him. He pulled the heads and took them apart and checked everything. He has them adjusted 1-1/2 turns. Nothing wrong. I put the engine back in the car and it was just as noisy as before. I loaded the car onto my buddy's trailer and we drove the 120 miles to his shop. When I started it, he was surprised at how noisy it was. We decided to change to solid roller lifters, as he said that he was sure they would be quieter when properly adjusted. The car is at his place now, but he just had knee surgery. I don't know how long before the car will be ready. I did find a tech sheet on Comp Cam's web site that stated that the hydraulic rollers tended to be noisy.
I don't know if your issue could be related or not. This came to mind when I read what you have going on. Interesting, like to hear what fixes it. I can tell some of the rockers are reasonably quiet, I can hear three or four on each side, some slight tap and some loud, changes with RPM. Comp Cams tells me the Thumpr roller cams in many cases may need a full turn or a little more to get them to mellow out. Of course you find this out after they sell it to ya. I'm close to trying new lifters.
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: Wolfe440]
#2945148
07/20/21 12:15 PM
07/20/21 12:15 PM
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Cab_Burge
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I used one Hydraulic roller lifter cam kit from Comp years ago in a street hemi motor for a local customer, I could not make it quiet no matter what way i set the preload It sounded like a old 30-30 Duntov solid lifter cam that came in the early Corvette motors The customer ended up saying don't worry about it after driving it. I heard later that Comp Cams sent back 1500 sets of that brand hydraulic lifters for all motors, not just Mopar BB V8. Evidently they bought a bunch of defective hydraulic roller lifters OP, how old are yours?
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 07/20/21 12:16 PM.
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: moparx]
#2945220
07/20/21 03:06 PM
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Wolfe440
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what did it sound like on the dyno ? He said it sounded good, sent me the results and the motor is produced 499 HP on the Dyno. I doubt that would have happened with a set of bad lifters. The motor was nicely stored and well covered in my shop for the next two years, primed it once a month and turned it by hand couple times a month. He does not see how that would cause a problem.
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: Wolfe440]
#2945370
07/20/21 08:46 PM
07/20/21 08:46 PM
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TJP
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Is this normal to find after shut down? Should they all hold their pressure? They should hold the oil (pressure) and if not I would say they are dirty or bad lifters due to excess clearances and are bleeding down. call Barton and buy a set from him only other reason I could think of is excessive spring pressure It seems as though Comp's once trusted quality has been slipping for quite a while IMO
Last edited by TJP; 07/20/21 08:53 PM.
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: TJP]
#2945544
07/21/21 11:38 AM
07/21/21 11:38 AM
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Wolfe440
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Is this normal to find after shut down? Should they all hold their pressure? They should hold the oil (pressure) and if not I would say they are dirty or bad lifters due to excess clearances and are bleeding down. call Barton and buy a set from him only other reason I could think of is excessive spring pressure It seems as though Comp's once trusted quality has been slipping for quite a while IMO I called Ray Barton, very nice man, his first bit of good information is to never go hydraulic with a Hemi, he's had nothing but major trouble and will never use them again, says the valve train is too heavy and it will lead to many problems, including bleed down when engine is shut down depending on the position of the lifters. He was not surprised I can't get them to stop rattling, and told to stop adjusting further, I'm just asking for big trouble. The hydraulic that came from the factory used special lifters that could handle the pressures but are no longer available. We discussed going to solid, I have to first contact Comp and see if the cam I have can switch to solid lifters, I will also have to change to a different length push rod. Thank you TJP for telling me to contact him, it has likely saved me from a bigger problem! Update: I called Comp and yes with this roller cam I can switch to solid lifters, what a relief! I am waiting for Ray Barton to call me back with a lifter and push rod solution.
Last edited by Wolfe440; 07/21/21 12:19 PM.
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: Wolfe440]
#2945811
07/21/21 09:09 PM
07/21/21 09:09 PM
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TJP
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You're more than welcome and glad you made the call. I'm a 67 YO engineer that has been restoring and repairing customers classic cars for the last 25 or so years. I changed my first clutch in my brothers car (47 Ford closed driveline) at 13 years old in a gravel parking lot using a large piece of cardboard to lay on and have been at it ever since. So many times it appears the advice WE, (myself and other old farts) give falls on deaf ears. Might also want to ask him for a cam recommendation Good luck and keep up posted
Last edited by TJP; 07/21/21 09:16 PM.
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: TJP]
#2946003
07/22/21 12:13 PM
07/22/21 12:13 PM
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Wolfe440
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You're more than welcome and glad you made the call. I'm a 67 YO engineer that has been restoring and repairing customers classic cars for the last 25 or so years. I changed my first clutch in my brothers car (47 Ford closed driveline) at 13 years old in a gravel parking lot using a large piece of cardboard to lay on and have been at it ever since. So many times it appears the advice WE, (myself and other old farts) give falls on deaf ears. Might also want to ask him for a cam recommendation Good luck and keep up posted In 1977 I was 17 and my first car was a GTX 440-6. Had only a pair of pliers and zero knowledge how to keep it running, but I got by somehow. I screwed up more then I fixed in those early days. I am waiting to hear from the engine builder regarding me switching to a solid lift before I go do it. Comp Cams said yes the roller cam I have can be switched to solid lifters,... but its on me. So like when I was 17 years old, here I am again at 62 trying not to screw it up more!
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: Wolfe440]
#2946053
07/22/21 02:38 PM
07/22/21 02:38 PM
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DAYCLONA
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the Pertronix took a crap, how nice.., got a new one coming.
Pertronix I...?
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: Wolfe440]
#2946202
07/22/21 10:33 PM
07/22/21 10:33 PM
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The early Pertronix I system have no safe guard to protect the HallCell from burning up if the ignition is in the run mode and the engine is not running, that's when they usually crap out, if you have to diagnose the engine for over 20-30 seconds without it running, but the key/ignition is in the run mode, disconnect the red Pertronix HallCell lead from the positive (+) side of the coil to prevent HallCell damage.... I assume your running the Pertronix I because you converted a Prestolite HEMI dual point? MikeG
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Re: Hemi Rocker adjustment
[Re: Wolfe440]
#2946337
07/23/21 12:07 PM
07/23/21 12:07 PM
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Wolfe440
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I have a large stack of old Car Craft magazines from the mid 60's to the 70's. Browsing last night I happened to find an article from March of 1967 with Dick Landy explaining how he adjusts Hemi solid rockers, apparently he preferred a two step process.
Last edited by Wolfe440; 07/23/21 12:14 PM.
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