Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI
[Re: RAMM]
#2935988
06/23/21 12:03 PM
06/23/21 12:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,765 A collage of whims
topside
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,765
A collage of whims
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Captain Obvious stuff on 440 vs 426 Hemi curves; been that way for 50 years. It's the heads; remember the air pump analogy... They didn't do the Hemi any favors with 9.0:1 static CR; they like CR. Heck, that's why the Hemi chamber was developed in the 1st place - power & reduced detonation on crap gas. My 438" Hemi street motor, old-school Crower SFT with similar specs, was 10.8:1 and happy on pump 92. 490 ft/lbs, 540HP by 7000 and climbing, and not a radical thing to operate. Did need 4.10s but it was happy cruising at 3500. Like the world's largest SBC, it was plenty adequate under 3500, but after that, impressive and tore through the tach.
MT isn't free with Hagerty any more, it's $3/month. Engine Masters, the Roadkill & HRG stuff, and old episodes of TopGear (UK) are all I'm interested in, so still deciding...
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Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI
[Re: 73DAD]
#2935992
06/23/21 12:18 PM
06/23/21 12:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490 Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490
Minnesota
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Some details from the test
the 440 was 9.5:1 compression with 906 heads milled to reduce volume from 87cc to 83cc and a valve job back in 2001. the 426 was 9:1 with standard iron crate motor heads as cast
On the Hemi, they claimed to be running Ray Barton's valvetrain setup reduced to 1.5 ratio rockers so actual valve lift would be similar
The 440 had the edelbrock six pack manifold The 426 had a marine style dual plane with two Holleys
I think its important to point out that one engine was built down while the other had a bit of help to make the test more..."equal". This stupid kind of BS is what makes a test like this a joke. Obviously, a Hemi and a wedge like different cam profiles and will tolerate different compression levels. Using mods that are not optimized to the engine is ridiculous. Nobody interested in performance buys a hemi and kills the lift and drops the compression. Either test a pair of totally bone stock engines, or even better make changes to each that are optimized for that motor.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI
[Re: RAMM]
#2936021
06/23/21 01:37 PM
06/23/21 01:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,165 Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
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master
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Posts: 8,165
Plymouth, MI
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It's because of the already "softened" chamber<<< I dislike that terminology--It's scalloped IMO. The HEMI has a factory scalloped chamber that widens the tuning window significantly under power adder applications--Basically the HEMI chamber is a slow burning chamber which is why when you add a second plug--things change so much. Hate to say it but a single plug wide open 170cc chamber is inefficient. J.Rob Thank you for the explanation, that makes complete sense. Also makes sense now as to why they added the 2nd plug and quench areas to the G3 head.
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI
[Re: Blusmbl]
#2936041
06/23/21 02:48 PM
06/23/21 02:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
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Finally got around to watching it, enjoyed the episode.
Hopefully 146 cubic inches larger than stock will be enough of a change to notice a slight improvement.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2936049
06/23/21 03:09 PM
06/23/21 03:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,256 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,256
fredericksburg,va
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Some details from the test
the 440 was 9.5:1 compression with 906 heads milled to reduce volume from 87cc to 83cc and a valve job back in 2001. the 426 was 9:1 with standard iron crate motor heads as cast
On the Hemi, they claimed to be running Ray Barton's valvetrain setup reduced to 1.5 ratio rockers so actual valve lift would be similar
The 440 had the edelbrock six pack manifold The 426 had a marine style dual plane with two Holleys
I think its important to point out that one engine was built down while the other had a bit of help to make the test more..."equal". This stupid kind of BS is what makes a test like this a joke. Obviously, a Hemi and a wedge like different cam profiles and will tolerate different compression levels. Using mods that are not optimized to the engine is ridiculous. Nobody interested in performance buys a hemi and kills the lift and drops the compression. Either test a pair of totally bone stock engines, or even better make changes to each that are optimized for that motor. Agree 100%
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Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI
[Re: ZIPPY]
#2936062
06/23/21 03:53 PM
06/23/21 03:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,022 MN
JERICOGTX
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,022
MN
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Finally got around to watching it, enjoyed the episode.
Hopefully 146 cubic inches larger than stock will be enough of a change to notice a slight improvement.
Looks good Rich. I like the powder coated engine plate.
69 GTX
68 Road Runner
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Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI
[Re: JERICOGTX]
#2936066
06/23/21 04:08 PM
06/23/21 04:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
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Finally got around to watching it, enjoyed the episode.
Hopefully 146 cubic inches larger than stock will be enough of a change to notice a slight improvement.
Looks good Rich. I like the powder coated engine plate. Thanks Jeff. I've had some good influences in that area (Chip and yourself come to mind)
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI
[Re: ZIPPY]
#2936097
06/23/21 04:55 PM
06/23/21 04:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,848 Memphis
HemiRick
master
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master
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Posts: 4,848
Memphis
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The results are easily explained. 440 has too small ports stock.426 has too large ports stock....Increase the hemi by 100 CI and the results will be much better torque wise per CI.
Take care, Rick 68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451
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Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI
[Re: HemiRick]
#2936129
06/23/21 06:21 PM
06/23/21 06:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,029 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,029
Oregon
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The results are easily explained. 440 has too small ports stock.426 has too large ports stock....Increase the hemi by 100 CI and the results will be much better torque wise per CI. The Chrysler engineers could've easily put a 4.250 stroke in the Hemi engine from the factory. There is enough room for it and they had the technology available to them. I don't know if they just didn't think of it or maybe they thought better of it. That would've been a 482 at the stock bore size and it probably would've been a monster on the street back in the 70's.
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Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI
[Re: AndyF]
#2936133
06/23/21 06:41 PM
06/23/21 06:41 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684 W. Kentucky
justinp61
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I Live Here
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W. Kentucky
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The results are easily explained. 440 has too small ports stock.426 has too large ports stock....Increase the hemi by 100 CI and the results will be much better torque wise per CI. The Chrysler engineers could've easily put a 4.250 stroke in the Hemi engine from the factory. There is enough room for it and they had the technology available to them. I don't know if they just didn't think of it or maybe they thought better of it. That would've been a 482 at the stock bore size and it probably would've been a monster on the street back in the 70's. I could imagine the smile on a insurance agents face in 1970 when you walked in and told him you just bought a new 482 Hemi Cuda.
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Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI
[Re: justinp61]
#2936136
06/23/21 06:51 PM
06/23/21 06:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490 Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490
Minnesota
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I believe the NASCAR rules had a 7 liter limit in engine displacement. The Hemis big ports were designed for high RPM power on the race track.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2936164
06/23/21 08:10 PM
06/23/21 08:10 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,172 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,172
Bend,OR USA
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I believe the NASCAR rules had a 7 liter limit in engine displacement. The Hemis big ports were designed for high RPM power on the race track. both NHRA and NASCAR had a max 427 C.I. limit for production cars being raced back then Circa 1962,1963 era
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 06/23/21 08:11 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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