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Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI [Re: RAMM] #2935988
06/23/21 12:03 PM
06/23/21 12:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,765
A collage of whims
topside Offline
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Posts: 20,765
A collage of whims
Captain Obvious stuff on 440 vs 426 Hemi curves; been that way for 50 years. It's the heads; remember the air pump analogy...
They didn't do the Hemi any favors with 9.0:1 static CR; they like CR.
Heck, that's why the Hemi chamber was developed in the 1st place - power & reduced detonation on crap gas.
My 438" Hemi street motor, old-school Crower SFT with similar specs, was 10.8:1 and happy on pump 92.
490 ft/lbs, 540HP by 7000 and climbing, and not a radical thing to operate. Did need 4.10s but it was happy cruising at 3500.
Like the world's largest SBC, it was plenty adequate under 3500, but after that, impressive and tore through the tach.

MT isn't free with Hagerty any more, it's $3/month.
Engine Masters, the Roadkill & HRG stuff, and old episodes of TopGear (UK) are all I'm interested in, so still deciding...

Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI [Re: 73DAD] #2935992
06/23/21 12:18 PM
06/23/21 12:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490
Minnesota
Hemi_Joel Offline
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Originally Posted by 73DAD
Some details from the test

the 440 was 9.5:1 compression with 906 heads milled to reduce volume from 87cc to 83cc and a valve job back in 2001.
the 426 was 9:1 with standard iron crate motor heads as cast

On the Hemi, they claimed to be running Ray Barton's valvetrain setup reduced to 1.5 ratio rockers so actual valve lift would be similar

The 440 had the edelbrock six pack manifold
The 426 had a marine style dual plane with two Holleys

I think its important to point out that one engine was built down while the other had a bit of help to make the test more..."equal".



This stupid kind of BS is what makes a test like this a joke. Obviously, a Hemi and a wedge like different cam profiles and will tolerate different compression levels. Using mods that are not optimized to the engine is ridiculous. Nobody interested in performance buys a hemi and kills the lift and drops the compression. confused Either test a pair of totally bone stock engines, or even better make changes to each that are optimized for that motor.


[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]
31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum
RS23J71
RS27J77
RP23J71
RO23J71
WM21J8A
I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI [Re: RAMM] #2936021
06/23/21 01:37 PM
06/23/21 01:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,165
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl Offline
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Plymouth, MI
Originally Posted by RAMM
It's because of the already "softened" chamber<<< I dislike that terminology--It's scalloped IMO. The HEMI has a factory scalloped chamber that widens the tuning window significantly under power adder applications--Basically the HEMI chamber is a slow burning chamber which is why when you add a second plug--things change so much. Hate to say it but a single plug wide open 170cc chamber is inefficient. J.Rob


Thank you for the explanation, that makes complete sense. Also makes sense now as to why they added the 2nd plug and quench areas to the G3 head.


'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI [Re: Blusmbl] #2936041
06/23/21 02:48 PM
06/23/21 02:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
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S.E. Michigan
Finally got around to watching it, enjoyed the episode.

Hopefully 146 cubic inches larger than stock will be enough of a change to notice a slight improvement.

572-001.jpg

Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI [Re: Hemi_Joel] #2936049
06/23/21 03:09 PM
06/23/21 03:09 PM
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fredericksburg,va
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fredericksburg,va
Originally Posted by Hemi_Joel
Originally Posted by 73DAD
Some details from the test

the 440 was 9.5:1 compression with 906 heads milled to reduce volume from 87cc to 83cc and a valve job back in 2001.
the 426 was 9:1 with standard iron crate motor heads as cast

On the Hemi, they claimed to be running Ray Barton's valvetrain setup reduced to 1.5 ratio rockers so actual valve lift would be similar

The 440 had the edelbrock six pack manifold
The 426 had a marine style dual plane with two Holleys

I think its important to point out that one engine was built down while the other had a bit of help to make the test more..."equal".



This stupid kind of BS is what makes a test like this a joke. Obviously, a Hemi and a wedge like different cam profiles and will tolerate different compression levels. Using mods that are not optimized to the engine is ridiculous. Nobody interested in performance buys a hemi and kills the lift and drops the compression. confused Either test a pair of totally bone stock engines, or even better make changes to each that are optimized for that motor.

Agree 100%

Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI [Re: ZIPPY] #2936062
06/23/21 03:53 PM
06/23/21 03:53 PM
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MN
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MN
Originally Posted by ZIPPY
Finally got around to watching it, enjoyed the episode.

Hopefully 146 cubic inches larger than stock will be enough of a change to notice a slight improvement.










Looks good Rich. I like the powder coated engine plate.


69 GTX 68 Road Runner
Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI [Re: JERICOGTX] #2936066
06/23/21 04:08 PM
06/23/21 04:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
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S.E. Michigan
Originally Posted by JERICOGTX
Originally Posted by ZIPPY
Finally got around to watching it, enjoyed the episode.

Hopefully 146 cubic inches larger than stock will be enough of a change to notice a slight improvement.










Looks good Rich. I like the powder coated engine plate.



Thanks Jeff. I've had some good influences in that area (Chip and yourself come to mind)


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI [Re: ZIPPY] #2936097
06/23/21 04:55 PM
06/23/21 04:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
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Memphis
HemiRick Offline
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The results are easily explained. 440 has too small ports stock.426 has too large ports stock....Increase the hemi by 100 CI and the results will be much better torque wise per CI.


Take care,
Rick
68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451
Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI [Re: HemiRick] #2936129
06/23/21 06:21 PM
06/23/21 06:21 PM
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Posts: 31,029
Oregon
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Oregon
Originally Posted by HemiRick
The results are easily explained. 440 has too small ports stock.426 has too large ports stock....Increase the hemi by 100 CI and the results will be much better torque wise per CI.


The Chrysler engineers could've easily put a 4.250 stroke in the Hemi engine from the factory. There is enough room for it and they had the technology available to them. I don't know if they just didn't think of it or maybe they thought better of it. That would've been a 482 at the stock bore size and it probably would've been a monster on the street back in the 70's.

Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI [Re: AndyF] #2936133
06/23/21 06:41 PM
06/23/21 06:41 PM
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Posts: 11,684
W. Kentucky
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Originally Posted by HemiRick
The results are easily explained. 440 has too small ports stock.426 has too large ports stock....Increase the hemi by 100 CI and the results will be much better torque wise per CI.


The Chrysler engineers could've easily put a 4.250 stroke in the Hemi engine from the factory. There is enough room for it and they had the technology available to them. I don't know if they just didn't think of it or maybe they thought better of it. That would've been a 482 at the stock bore size and it probably would've been a monster on the street back in the 70's.


I could imagine the smile on a insurance agents face in 1970 when you walked in and told him you just bought a new 482 Hemi Cuda. shock

Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI [Re: justinp61] #2936136
06/23/21 06:51 PM
06/23/21 06:51 PM
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Minnesota
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I believe the NASCAR rules had a 7 liter limit in engine displacement. The Hemis big ports were designed for high RPM power on the race track.


[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]
31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum
RS23J71
RS27J77
RP23J71
RO23J71
WM21J8A
I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
Re: Engine Masters: 6pack vs HEMI [Re: Hemi_Joel] #2936164
06/23/21 08:10 PM
06/23/21 08:10 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Bend,OR USA
Originally Posted by Hemi_Joel
I believe the NASCAR rules had a 7 liter limit in engine displacement. The Hemis big ports were designed for high RPM power on the race track.
up iagree both NHRA and NASCAR had a max 427 C.I. limit for production cars being raced back then Circa 1962,1963 era scope

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 06/23/21 08:11 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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