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Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: oldjonny] #2850285
11/23/20 08:50 AM
11/23/20 08:50 AM
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Equipment such as 240V motors and heaters would not have a neutral he what he is trying to say. If you are an electrician you should be able to understand that.


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Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: moparmarks] #2850288
11/23/20 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by moparmarks
Equipment such as 240V motors and heaters would not have a neutral he what he is trying to say. If you are an electrician you should be able to understand that.


EE and its real simple to say what is correct.


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Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: oldjonny] #2850290
11/23/20 09:03 AM
11/23/20 09:03 AM
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True. But I have found over the years on here that when someone ask an electrical question that most of the people giving answers are not electricians or engineers.
Two guys that know what they are doing could accomplish his task in probably a couple hours with a volt/ohm meter by ringing out the circuits. Did it many times back in the day.


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Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: moparmarks] #2850314
11/23/20 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by moparmarks
True. But I have found over the years on here that when someone ask an electrical question that most of the people giving answers are not electricians or engineers.
Two guys that know what they are doing could accomplish his task in probably a couple hours with a volt/ohm meter by ringing out the circuits. Did it many times back in the day.


Correct up up


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Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: Hemi_Joel] #2850320
11/23/20 10:23 AM
11/23/20 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Hemi_Joel
I have a question for the electricians here please. I recently purchased an abandoned gas station / car wash. It has been empty for at least 10 years. I am going to convert it to a different use, and I want to strip out all of the fixtures in wiring related to the gas pumping operation and convenience store coolers and equipment. But I want to keep the lighting and outlets and furnace, well pump, and the essential wiring in place. There is four or five different panels, and wires everywhere. The electrical power lines from the pole to the building have been cut off, so there is absolutely no power to the building at this point.

So what kind of apparatus can I use to most easily identify the circuit breakers and wires that lead to the essential fixtures, and which ones lead to the stuff that I want to rip out?

My plan is to get the demo done without the use of the electrician, then get a licensed electrician in to make any needed reconnections before getting the power hooked up again. I can run a generator or something to have some temporary lighting in there, but I'm looking for something, possibly battery-powered, that can allow me to trace circuits. Thanks, Joel


This seems like a relatively small scope. I'm not sure just what code version your building was built under but commercial buildings usually require conduit of some kind. You mentioned that much of it is EMT. So I would just trace the conduit from the equipment to the distribution panels and then start pulling the wire out of the conduits. Leave the conduits though, you may find a use for them in the future.


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Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: 6PakBee] #2850369
11/23/20 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Originally Posted by Hemi_Joel
I have a question for the electricians here please. I recently purchased an abandoned gas station / car wash. It has been empty for at least 10 years. I am going to convert it to a different use, and I want to strip out all of the fixtures in wiring related to the gas pumping operation and convenience store coolers and equipment. But I want to keep the lighting and outlets and furnace, well pump, and the essential wiring in place. There is four or five different panels, and wires everywhere. The electrical power lines from the pole to the building have been cut off, so there is absolutely no power to the building at this point.

So what kind of apparatus can I use to most easily identify the circuit breakers and wires that lead to the essential fixtures, and which ones lead to the stuff that I want to rip out?

My plan is to get the demo done without the use of the electrician, then get a licensed electrician in to make any needed reconnections before getting the power hooked up again. I can run a generator or something to have some temporary lighting in there, but I'm looking for something, possibly battery-powered, that can allow me to trace circuits. Thanks, Joel


This seems like a relatively small scope. I'm not sure just what code version your building was built under but commercial buildings usually require conduit of some kind. You mentioned that much of it is EMT. So I would just trace the conduit from the equipment to the distribution panels and then start pulling the wire out of the conduits. Leave the conduits though, you may find a use for them in the future.


Pull up the ancient 3-Stooges video "A Plumbing we will go"....."There's wires in these pipes"


Never, ever argue with an IDIOT. They will drag you to their level and then beat you with their years of experience
Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: oldjonny] #2850377
11/23/20 11:47 AM
11/23/20 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by oldjonny
Originally Posted by 6PakBee
Originally Posted by Hemi_Joel
I have a question for the electricians here please. I recently purchased an abandoned gas station / car wash. It has been empty for at least 10 years. I am going to convert it to a different use, and I want to strip out all of the fixtures in wiring related to the gas pumping operation and convenience store coolers and equipment. But I want to keep the lighting and outlets and furnace, well pump, and the essential wiring in place. There is four or five different panels, and wires everywhere. The electrical power lines from the pole to the building have been cut off, so there is absolutely no power to the building at this point.

So what kind of apparatus can I use to most easily identify the circuit breakers and wires that lead to the essential fixtures, and which ones lead to the stuff that I want to rip out?

My plan is to get the demo done without the use of the electrician, then get a licensed electrician in to make any needed reconnections before getting the power hooked up again. I can run a generator or something to have some temporary lighting in there, but I'm looking for something, possibly battery-powered, that can allow me to trace circuits. Thanks, Joel


This seems like a relatively small scope. I'm not sure just what code version your building was built under but commercial buildings usually require conduit of some kind. You mentioned that much of it is EMT. So I would just trace the conduit from the equipment to the distribution panels and then start pulling the wire out of the conduits. Leave the conduits though, you may find a use for them in the future.


Pull up the ancient 3-Stooges video "A Plumbing we will go"....."There's wires in these pipes"



haha My favorite Three Stooges short next to "Three Little Pirates".

"Moe: Razbanyi siati benefuchi timiniharogi. That, how do you call it, that froghead, he askee taskaskee, whatifichorsa inginzoben. Gotet something else kiddo?
Curly: Razbanyai siati benefuchi timinharongi. Paradeecke mahiha. I'd want to see that.
Moe: Sit down, you flatbush flathead! "


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Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: 6PakBee] #2850423
11/23/20 12:45 PM
11/23/20 12:45 PM
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Maybe I shouldn't strip out much? The thing is there is three panels in the basement, and two or three on the main level. It's kind of a mess. It would be nice to consolidate it down to the essentials, but I suppose it's not necessary.

My reasonably intelligent and capable handy helper guy will work 6 hours for for the cost of one hour of a professional electrician. So with him and me I'd like to get the grunt work out of the way before the pro shows up. Hopefully they don't make me go to a code update. I had to do that once before and it was a bunch of really expensive nonsense in my opinion.


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Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: Hemi_Joel] #2850430
11/23/20 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Hemi_Joel
Maybe I shouldn't strip out much? The thing is there is three panels in the basement, and two or three on the main level. It's kind of a mess. It would be nice to consolidate it down to the essentials, but I suppose it's not necessary.

My reasonably intelligent and capable handy helper guy will work 6 hours for for the cost of one hour of a professional electrician. So with him and me I'd like to get the grunt work out of the way before the pro shows up. Hopefully they don't make me go to a code update. I had to do that once before and it was a bunch of really expensive nonsense in my opinion.


Sounds like a plan. Cleaning up years and years of hack-job wiring is always a good thing to do for your own sanity going forward. Nothing worse than a National Lampoon Christmas Vacation wiring job with some switch on a bathroom wall turning your main power on and off!


Never, ever argue with an IDIOT. They will drag you to their level and then beat you with their years of experience
Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: Hemi_Joel] #2850454
11/23/20 01:34 PM
11/23/20 01:34 PM
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Depending on the size of the building, what I would probably do is:
One breaker at a time, connect the hot and the common together, then go to each outlet, light, etc... with a multimeter and do a simple continuity check. Might be labor intensive if this is a large building.

EDIT: I would also number each breaker, then whatever you find on that circuit, write that number on the light or outlet. That way you can make sure you didn't miss anything.

Last edited by Fat_Mike; 11/23/20 01:38 PM.
Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: oldjonny] #2850489
11/23/20 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by oldjonny
Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by srt
The buss bar would energize every circuit. I'd do similar, but remove every neutral from the lug and connect the battery to each neutral and find what is energized. Doing so one could reattach every necessary neutral, and tap off/cut off each not needed. Lable each circuit as you i.d. it as well.
The nice thing about doing it that way is the battery could be attached to an outlet and test back at the box, larger circuits could be i.d.'d that way as well.
Just need to make sure all the neutrals are removed from the lugs, in the main, and any subs.


Doesn't account for any two or more phase circuits as they may not have a neutral.



Huh? Say What? There is Single Phase and Three Phase...no "two or more phase".



hmm, 208/220/240 circuits? L1, L2, Neutral and ground

Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: Sniper] #2850514
11/23/20 02:54 PM
11/23/20 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper
Originally Posted by oldjonny
Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by srt
The buss bar would energize every circuit. I'd do similar, but remove every neutral from the lug and connect the battery to each neutral and find what is energized. Doing so one could reattach every necessary neutral, and tap off/cut off each not needed. Lable each circuit as you i.d. it as well.
The nice thing about doing it that way is the battery could be attached to an outlet and test back at the box, larger circuits could be i.d.'d that way as well.
Just need to make sure all the neutrals are removed from the lugs, in the main, and any subs.


Doesn't account for any two or more phase circuits as they may not have a neutral.



Huh? Say What? There is Single Phase and Three Phase...no "two or more phase".



hmm, 208/220/240 circuits? L1, L2, Neutral and ground

208/220/240 motors and heat don't use a neutral. L1, L2 and a ground. 120 volt motors and heat do use a neutral.


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Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: moparmarks] #2850604
11/23/20 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by moparmarks
Originally Posted by Sniper
Originally Posted by oldjonny
Originally Posted by jcc


Doesn't account for any two or more phase circuits as they may not have a neutral.



Huh? Say What? There is Single Phase and Three Phase...no "two or more phase".



hmm, 208/220/240 circuits? L1, L2, Neutral and ground

208/220/240 motors and heat don't use a neutral. L1, L2 and a ground. 120 volt motors and heat do use a neutral.


Motors and heat are not the only things using 208/220/240 power. The gear I commission uses all four wires. But the point was two phase power not the use of a neutral.

Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: Sniper] #2850645
11/23/20 06:43 PM
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Easiest and fastest method is what I'm looking for. If I can use one of those hound dog scanner things to just magically follow the signal to the switches and fixtures without having to disassemble them, that would be the best. As long as it works through the EMT.


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WM21J8A
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"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: Hemi_Joel] #2850659
11/23/20 07:19 PM
11/23/20 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Hemi_Joel
Easiest and fastest method is what I'm looking for. If I can use one of those hound dog scanner things to just magically follow the signal to the switches and fixtures without having to disassemble them, that would be the best. As long as it works through the EMT.


Well, good luck with that. One of the benefits of metallic conduit is that is a good shield. In your case that's really a drawback. I still think in the end you'll be tracing conduit runs and proceeding accordingly.


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Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: oldjonny] #2850683
11/23/20 08:15 PM
11/23/20 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by oldjonny
Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by srt
The buss bar would energize every circuit. I'd do similar, but remove every neutral from the lug and connect the battery to each neutral and find what is energized. Doing so one could reattach every necessary neutral, and tap off/cut off each not needed. Lable each circuit as you i.d. it as well.
The nice thing about doing it that way is the battery could be attached to an outlet and test back at the box, larger circuits could be i.d.'d that way as well.
Just need to make sure all the neutrals are removed from the lugs, in the main, and any subs.


Doesn't account for any two or more phase circuits as they may not have a neutral.



Huh? Say What? There is Single Phase and Three Phase...no "two or more phase".

Nice job of mucking up a thread tsk


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: Hemi_Joel] #2850684
11/23/20 08:19 PM
11/23/20 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Hemi_Joel
Maybe I shouldn't strip out much? The thing is there is three panels in the basement, and two or three on the main level. It's kind of a mess. It would be nice to consolidate it down to the essentials, but I suppose it's not necessary.

My reasonably intelligent and capable handy helper guy will work 6 hours for for the cost of one hour of a professional electrician. So with him and me I'd like to get the grunt work out of the way before the pro shows up. Hopefully they don't make me go to a code update. I had to do that once before and it was a bunch of really expensive nonsense in my opinion.


I think you are now seeing the forest from the trees on the entire project.

And a real licensed electrician will shy away from anything not up to code, even if it appears to be nonsense, and sometimes is.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: jcc] #2850685
11/23/20 08:24 PM
11/23/20 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by oldjonny
Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by srt
The buss bar would energize every circuit. I'd do similar, but remove every neutral from the lug and connect the battery to each neutral and find what is energized. Doing so one could reattach every necessary neutral, and tap off/cut off each not needed. Lable each circuit as you i.d. it as well.
The nice thing about doing it that way is the battery could be attached to an outlet and test back at the box, larger circuits could be i.d.'d that way as well.
Just need to make sure all the neutrals are removed from the lugs, in the main, and any subs.


Doesn't account for any two or more phase circuits as they may not have a neutral.



Huh? Say What? There is Single Phase and Three Phase...no "two or more phase".

Nice job of mucking up a thread tsk


Stick to "Liberal Arts".....no, really


Never, ever argue with an IDIOT. They will drag you to their level and then beat you with their years of experience
Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: Hemi_Joel] #2850730
11/23/20 09:35 PM
11/23/20 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Hemi_Joel
Maybe I shouldn't strip out much? The thing is there is three panels in the basement, and two or three on the main level. It's kind of a mess. It would be nice to consolidate it down to the essentials, but I suppose it's not necessary.

My reasonably intelligent and capable handy helper guy will work 6 hours for for the cost of one hour of a professional electrician. So with him and me I'd like to get the grunt work out of the way before the pro shows up. Hopefully they don't make me go to a code update. I had to do that once before and it was a bunch of really expensive nonsense in my opinion.


Any new work that you have done will have to conform to the current MN electrical code. Will that require updates? Who knows, it's so dependent on what you have done. But if I was a betting man I'd bet that you will run into this very situation.


"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
Re: OT. Electrician question [Re: oldjonny] #2850736
11/23/20 09:56 PM
11/23/20 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by oldjonny
Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by oldjonny
Originally Posted by jcc
[quote=srt]The buss bar would energize every circuit. I'd do similar, but remove every neutral from the lug and connect the battery to each neutral and find what is energized. Doing so one could reattach every necessary neutral, and tap off/cut off each not needed. Lable each circuit as you i.d. it as well.
The nice thing about doing it that way is the battery could be attached to an outlet and test back at the box, larger circuits could be i.d.'d that way as well.
Just need to make sure all the neutrals are removed from the lugs, in the main, and any subs.


Doesn't account for any two or more phase circuits as they may not have a neutral.



Huh? Say What? There is Single Phase and Three Phase...no "two or more phase".

Nice job of mucking up a thread tsk


Stick to "Liberal Arts".....no, really Butt still hurting from noting here multi bused powered circuits w/o a neutral? eekbiggrin


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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