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Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: DrCharles] #2819770
09/11/20 05:32 PM
09/11/20 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DrCharles
That was really helpful too rolleyes

Have you actually read any of my posts?


Yes I have read your post, & I apologize for coming off as a jerk, the suggestion I made works.


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: CSK] #2819771
09/11/20 05:34 PM
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Thank you for saying so up
What do you think of my "stair-step" temperature increases? I'm stumped.

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: DrCharles] #2819777
09/11/20 06:03 PM
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Have you tapped, THUMPED the gauge to see if the needle moves, just a thought, also the water pump pulley my be an issue, mine is overdriven


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: DrCharles] #2819784
09/11/20 06:14 PM
09/11/20 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DrCharles
OK, some more data for those who think I'm not actively trying to research the cooling too...

I managed to get the fans out by only draining the coolant and removing the top hose. So I refilled it and went for a ride (78F and humid at the present).

A very strange phenomenon, maybe someone can tell me why: Warmed it up a bit to 160 on the gauge, started driving, temp went to 183 and t-stat opened as expected. Fast drop to 165 as the cold coolant in the radiator hit the engine, then gradually back up to 182. I drove a couple of miles at 30 mph and it stayed on 183. Thought I had my answer for sure (airflow obstruction). But wait, there's more...

So I turned around in the driveway (10 sec. max) and while I was doing that, the temp popped up to 190. Started down the road at 30 mph again... and it would not come down below 188 in the next mile.

Made another 3-pt turn down the road, and it rose to 198. Another mile, would not come down below 196, so I drove back to the garage and shut it down! Went up to around 215 due to accumulated engine heat. I put the garage fan on the radiator and it's dropping slowly (the electric fans would normally kick on and off a few times).

The gauge does not seem to be sticky, so I have to assume for now that the temperature readings are real.

How on earth can it be operating steadily at one temp, but "bump" it a little while idling/stopped and it won't come back down? This is outside my area of experience and I've never seen this on any other car I've driven in the last 40 years!

And I know it's not obstruction of the airflow by the shroud since the radiator core is sitting there wide-open... whistling



I feel like 30MPH is too slow for this airflow test. Take at to like 50MPH range, and it should drop your temp. At 30MPH, the fan is probably still helping with your cooling.

beer


Paul
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: CSK] #2819785
09/11/20 06:15 PM
09/11/20 06:15 PM
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I would say you are having 2 problems then.
air flow and cooling capacity.
you are on the ragged edge of just enough cooling capacity with the rad wide open.
your 10 sec with no air flow brought the temp up but you don't have enough extra capacity to shed the extra heat built up in the coolant back to normal running temps.
or maybe just enough to get it back down to 188 from 190.

I bet that if you ran it hard, without the fans the temp would climb too then even with the rad wide open like it is.

you can test that too if you want to be sure.
drop it into low and run around and see if that brings up the temp above your 183.
Depending on your gearing, you might be reving pretty high to keep it over 40. That will tell you something too.

If it stays at 183, I would be surprised, but it would be another data point.

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: TJP] #2819812
09/11/20 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TJP
by your description you are either not getting enough air through the radiator while moving Or the radiator is too small / Inefficient to keep up with the heat being generated.
You can try some temporary cardboard baffling to trap and force the air through the radiator. Do not forget the seal between the hood and core support as well as any other areas the air can be escaping through. Last thought would be are fans/ shroud blocking the air flow ??? Some electric fan / shroud setups have rubber flaps that are pushed open at higher speeds letting the air flow through rather than acting as a barrier.
A long shot but make sure your lower hose isn't collapsing if it does not have a spring inside it Keep us posted beer


Yes I quoted myself as i wanted to say I have spent a reasonable amount of time in the last 20+ years resolving the exact issue(s) you are describing. In addition another 20 or so years of temperature measurement in various R & D positions.
I did leave out a couple of critical facts. When approaching a heating problem the very first thing I do is install a Thermocouple probe and digital meter to establish exactly what is going on and when. The two items can be purchased rather inexpensively ( under 100.00) if one shops for pricing. Do be a ware that there are different materials used in the probes and the are not interchangeable. So if you have a meter calibrated for "J" type probes you have to make sure the probes and extension leads are of the same type.
I do not trust gauges or IR guns.as i have seen them both be off by 40 degrees or more ( usually at the warm end)
Your problem IMO lies somewhere in my initial comment. It may also be combination of airflow and radiator efficiency. I will also say that I seriously doubt a water pump is going to resolve the issue unless your pulley ratios are skewed and slowing the pump down to much at higher RPM's. beer

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: TJP] #2819826
09/11/20 08:11 PM
09/11/20 08:11 PM
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Thanks for the recursive post. grin

It's going to be hard to put any more radiator in there... I already have tried, as noted, a 3-row copper/brass 26" and a new aluminum 3-row 26". Any thicker core would not leave enough room for a fan! It's a tight squeeze as is... any radiator recommendations if this proves otherwise unfixable?

Regarding airflow, the radiator is just sitting there behind the grill, basically open to the incoming air. I recently posted that I completely removed the fan/shroud assembly completely, and still had temps well above the t-stat opening when driving at 30 mph. Would ducting really be necessary or helpful? In your experience, at what speed does the fan stop contributing? Is 30 mph not enough? work

Yep, I know the difference between thermocouple types. I've used K-type to measure EGT's. I'll double check my gauge in boiling water since I won't (hopefully) be measuring temps over 210 anyway whistling

Lower hose with the old radiator could not possibly collapse (two short silicone elbows and a rigid 2" aluminum tube connecting them). Identical temp behavior with the new rad and a parts-store Gates hose. But that's definitely a good zebra to look for wink

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: DrCharles] #2819828
09/11/20 08:15 PM
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so I don't know how stock you care to be.
I went for a double pass rad, and I know they make a triple pass rad.
not cores but passes. mine splits on the horizontal and doesn't have a built in cooler because of it.
It might give you more cooling capacity.

I agree more testing would help and if your gauge is in question, independent temp readings are in order.
but I would run the cheap tests first and see if it makes a difference.

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: Andrewh] #2819849
09/11/20 09:57 PM
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Not sure if you mentioned which alum radiator you went with but I would recommend the ECP one.... https://www.speedcooling.com/26-Big-Block-Mopar-Radiator.html This is what I have and with the MB fan, the depth of both is 6 - 6 1/4". This radiator has 2 rows of 1" tubing. Price is nice, fits like stock and looks good, especially when painted.

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: roadrunninMark] #2819857
09/11/20 10:57 PM
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Thanks. If it turns out I need more radiator, that looks like a good choice without breaking the play budget.

My "no-brand" (it looks just like a Champion) has three rows of smaller tubes and a lot of them.
ECP claims that the two 1" tubes cools "substantially" better than a three-row, but I wish they had some BTU and temperature drop numbers to back it up. work

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: DrCharles] #2819869
09/12/20 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by DrCharles
Thanks. If it turns out I need more radiator, that looks like a good choice without breaking the play budget.

My "no-brand" (it looks just like a Champion) has three rows of smaller tubes and a lot of them.
ECP claims that the two 1" tubes cools "substantially" better than a three-row, but I wish they had some BTU and temperature drop numbers to back it up. work

I also have the ECP radiator in my Charger


1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI
512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim
2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: DrCharles] #2819902
09/12/20 07:38 AM
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Maybe that new parts store Gates hose 22698 is not made for a suction side as it is an upper return hose for a GM truck. Maybe it is collapsing under higher rpm and demand? Might not hurt to put a spring in there to eliminate the possibility of collapsing the hose???

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: jb500] #2819937
09/12/20 10:29 AM
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What's an upper return hose? shruggy

As I posted previously - "Lower hose with the old radiator could not possibly collapse (two short silicone elbows and a rigid 2" aluminum tube connecting them). Identical temp behavior with the new rad and a parts-store Gates hose." I suppose a collapse is possible but unlikely, given that the temperature reached, and the swings with the fans coming on and off, did not change one bit...

Anyhow if I have it off again, I'll put a spring in it. Thanks for the tip.

Flowkooler high-volume pump from Summit is allegedly coming today. I'll go take the old one out, I'm dying to know if I screwed up years ago and put a six-vane pump in it wink

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: DrCharles] #2819942
09/12/20 10:41 AM
09/12/20 10:41 AM
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By the sounds of your test drive Dr Charles, I think you have air bubbles in the system trying to work their way out?

I just did a water pump 2 weeks ago on one of my Magnums and it took a 40 mile drive to work it all out, while the temp swung wild: it settled down and is consistent now. At first, I just went 10 or 15 miles and it was taking antifreeze and running like a stuck thermostat, but the long drive worked and antifreeze is sitting at the same level. up

Perhaps others more knowledgeable can correct me though?

Oh yeah, turn your heater on WFO and crank the windows when/if it climbs in temp. grin


Mo' Farts

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Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: Grizzly] #2819949
09/12/20 10:57 AM
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does the system puke when shut off ?
do you use a recovery tank, and if so, do you have the correct radiator cap for the recovery tank use ?
beer

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: moparx] #2819955
09/12/20 11:16 AM
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No puking, the electric fans can still come on with the engine shut off which keeps temps under control. Even with the water pump stopped, it cools down (while the stat is open) via thermosiphoning and the fan.

I have a catch can and a "normal" radiator cap. No recovery system. But the only time it got about half a cup in it was when I filled the radiator to the very top instead of 1" down.

I've really never had any trouble getting the air out of any cooling system I've drained and filled. I think the key is just to fill slowly and give the air a chance to bubble to the top (and a vent hole in the stat helps too).

Just removed the water pump - unfortunately I did use the right one (8 vanes). So the high-output one may not fix anything. At which point I may admit defeat and either buy a better radiator (like the one suggested above). Or just live with the slightly-higher temps!

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: DrCharles] #2819974
09/12/20 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DrCharles
Thanks for the recursive post. grin
Regarding airflow, the radiator is just sitting there behind the grill, basically open to the incoming air. I recently posted that I completely removed the fan/shroud assembly completely, and still had temps well above the t-stat opening when driving at 30 mph. Would ducting really be necessary or helpful? In your experience, at what speed does the fan stop contributing? Is 30 mph not enough? work
wink


Is 30 MPH sufficient ? That is not easy to answer as the ambient temp varies, plus the heat being generated is unknown. I, like the others would suggest a higher speed say 50 or 60, especially without the baffling in place.

Again i would encourage the use of a T/C as it's response is immediate and can give you a better idea of what and when things are going astray

Cardboard baffles are a cheap thing to try. Do not forget the seal across the top of the core support to hood, any type of hose of foam works well for experimentation.

Also be aware that all radiator cores are not created equally (IE: bean counters at work) Sometimes one gets what they pay for wink

as a last resort Might want to give Glen Ray a call beer

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: TJP] #2819983
09/12/20 12:20 PM
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Every thermocouple has a time constant... some are faster than others. I experimented with EGT probes on a turbo car and found that longevity was inversely proportional to time constant (due to rugged construction) wink But you're right, for the absolute most accurate and repeatable temp measurements that's the way to go. I assumed (there's that word again) that mine is close since the t-stat opening temp (on 2 different 180 stats) is very close to what I see on the gauge...

I just find it hard to believe that a couple of pieces of cardboard baffling are going to make a significant difference to the airflow through the radiator while driving with so much frontal area open shruggy
I don't have an overheating problem at idle either, just wanted to drop 10 degrees while cruising.

If the core is that marginal I need a better one anyway. I do agree that (sometimes) one gets what one pays for smile Glen-Ray is a bit steep for my budget but I'll buy one if I have to!

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: DrCharles] #2819989
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Upper being one designed to hold pressure and not vacuum as the lower is the suction side of the system. Gates state they have designed into their hoses with a fiber braid to prevent collapsing, but is that across the board or specific hoses??

If you don't have a spring on hand, there is a Mustang parts guy (CJ Pony Parts) that sells a stainless lower rad hose spring for under $10.

Might as well as try and eliminate the easier and lower cost items to make sure your foundation is solid before jumping into the $$$$ items.

Re: Trying to keep cool(er) [Re: DrCharles] #2820079
09/12/20 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DrCharles
Every thermocouple has a time constant... some are faster than others. I experimented with EGT probes on a turbo car and found that longevity was inversely proportional to time constant (due to rugged construction) wink But you're right, for the absolute most accurate and repeatable temp measurements that's the way to go. I assumed (there's that word again) that mine is close since the t-stat opening temp (on 2 different 180 stats) is very close to what I see on the gauge...

I just find it hard to believe that a couple of pieces of cardboard baffling are going to make a significant difference to the airflow through the radiator while driving with so much frontal area open shruggy
I don't have an overheating problem at idle either, just wanted to drop 10 degrees while cruising.

If the core is that marginal I need a better one anyway. I do agree that (sometimes) one gets what one pays for smile Glen-Ray is a bit steep for my budget but I'll buy one if I have to!

From an earlier post on a similar subject
Quote

I'll politely disagree as at highway speeds one is generating more heat. I had a 69 Coronet R/T (members car) with 22 inch Radiator. Measuring the temperature with a laboratory grade thermocouple probe and digital meter. The car had the same symptoms. I could type out a novel on the things tried and hours lost. There most definitely are other things that can lead to the problem but in my experience it is generally an inefficient core or undersized radiator. The final fix was sending the radiator to from Glen ray. He said the issue lies with the quality of the cores today and their efficiency.
That was about 5 years ago and last I heard it has never gone above 190 degrees PERIOD.
I probably lost over 200 hours on that one. Actually completely rebuilt the motor twice. As I said I could write a novel on the things tried.
This was a stock application and maintaining the stock radiator was required.

As to which is better IE: brass/copper vs aluminum. I do not think anyone can answer that question with any certainty as there are way to may variables involved. fins per inch, How they're attached, thickness of fins/ tubes, number of tubes, size of tubes, staggered tubes or not, and the list goes on

We later had a 65 GTO with the exact same issue. This car came in with a reproduction radiator that was less than a year old and a new motor. Getting a core installed from Glen rays suggested source again cured the problem. twocents beer


The post can be found here https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2739040/1.html

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