Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2819770
09/11/20 05:32 PM
09/11/20 05:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,918 Pattison Texas
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That was really helpful too Have you actually read any of my posts? Yes I have read your post, & I apologize for coming off as a jerk, the suggestion I made works.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2819777
09/11/20 06:03 PM
09/11/20 06:03 PM
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Have you tapped, THUMPED the gauge to see if the needle moves, just a thought, also the water pump pulley my be an issue, mine is overdriven
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2819784
09/11/20 06:14 PM
09/11/20 06:14 PM
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Posts: 1,307 BC, Canada
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OK, some more data for those who think I'm not actively trying to research the cooling too... I managed to get the fans out by only draining the coolant and removing the top hose. So I refilled it and went for a ride (78F and humid at the present). A very strange phenomenon, maybe someone can tell me why: Warmed it up a bit to 160 on the gauge, started driving, temp went to 183 and t-stat opened as expected. Fast drop to 165 as the cold coolant in the radiator hit the engine, then gradually back up to 182. I drove a couple of miles at 30 mph and it stayed on 183. Thought I had my answer for sure (airflow obstruction). But wait, there's more... So I turned around in the driveway (10 sec. max) and while I was doing that, the temp popped up to 190. Started down the road at 30 mph again... and it would not come down below 188 in the next mile. Made another 3-pt turn down the road, and it rose to 198. Another mile, would not come down below 196, so I drove back to the garage and shut it down! Went up to around 215 due to accumulated engine heat. I put the garage fan on the radiator and it's dropping slowly (the electric fans would normally kick on and off a few times). The gauge does not seem to be sticky, so I have to assume for now that the temperature readings are real. How on earth can it be operating steadily at one temp, but "bump" it a little while idling/stopped and it won't come back down? This is outside my area of experience and I've never seen this on any other car I've driven in the last 40 years! And I know it's not obstruction of the airflow by the shroud since the radiator core is sitting there wide-open... I feel like 30MPH is too slow for this airflow test. Take at to like 50MPH range, and it should drop your temp. At 30MPH, the fan is probably still helping with your cooling.
Paul '69 Super Bee 383 EFI Turbo
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: TJP]
#2819812
09/11/20 07:36 PM
09/11/20 07:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,012 Omaha Ne
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by your description you are either not getting enough air through the radiator while moving Or the radiator is too small / Inefficient to keep up with the heat being generated. You can try some temporary cardboard baffling to trap and force the air through the radiator. Do not forget the seal between the hood and core support as well as any other areas the air can be escaping through. Last thought would be are fans/ shroud blocking the air flow ??? Some electric fan / shroud setups have rubber flaps that are pushed open at higher speeds letting the air flow through rather than acting as a barrier. A long shot but make sure your lower hose isn't collapsing if it does not have a spring inside it Keep us posted Yes I quoted myself as i wanted to say I have spent a reasonable amount of time in the last 20+ years resolving the exact issue(s) you are describing. In addition another 20 or so years of temperature measurement in various R & D positions. I did leave out a couple of critical facts. When approaching a heating problem the very first thing I do is install a Thermocouple probe and digital meter to establish exactly what is going on and when. The two items can be purchased rather inexpensively ( under 100.00) if one shops for pricing. Do be a ware that there are different materials used in the probes and the are not interchangeable. So if you have a meter calibrated for "J" type probes you have to make sure the probes and extension leads are of the same type. I do not trust gauges or IR guns.as i have seen them both be off by 40 degrees or more ( usually at the warm end) Your problem IMO lies somewhere in my initial comment. It may also be combination of airflow and radiator efficiency. I will also say that I seriously doubt a water pump is going to resolve the issue unless your pulley ratios are skewed and slowing the pump down to much at higher RPM's.
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: TJP]
#2819826
09/11/20 08:11 PM
09/11/20 08:11 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220 West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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Thanks for the recursive post. It's going to be hard to put any more radiator in there... I already have tried, as noted, a 3-row copper/brass 26" and a new aluminum 3-row 26". Any thicker core would not leave enough room for a fan! It's a tight squeeze as is... any radiator recommendations if this proves otherwise unfixable? Regarding airflow, the radiator is just sitting there behind the grill, basically open to the incoming air. I recently posted that I completely removed the fan/shroud assembly completely, and still had temps well above the t-stat opening when driving at 30 mph. Would ducting really be necessary or helpful? In your experience, at what speed does the fan stop contributing? Is 30 mph not enough? Yep, I know the difference between thermocouple types. I've used K-type to measure EGT's. I'll double check my gauge in boiling water since I won't (hopefully) be measuring temps over 210 anyway Lower hose with the old radiator could not possibly collapse (two short silicone elbows and a rigid 2" aluminum tube connecting them). Identical temp behavior with the new rad and a parts-store Gates hose. But that's definitely a good zebra to look for
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: Andrewh]
#2819849
09/11/20 09:57 PM
09/11/20 09:57 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,040 GA
roadrunninMark
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Not sure if you mentioned which alum radiator you went with but I would recommend the ECP one.... https://www.speedcooling.com/26-Big-Block-Mopar-Radiator.html This is what I have and with the MB fan, the depth of both is 6 - 6 1/4". This radiator has 2 rows of 1" tubing. Price is nice, fits like stock and looks good, especially when painted.
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: roadrunninMark]
#2819857
09/11/20 10:57 PM
09/11/20 10:57 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
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DrCharles
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Thanks. If it turns out I need more radiator, that looks like a good choice without breaking the play budget. My "no-brand" (it looks just like a Champion) has three rows of smaller tubes and a lot of them. ECP claims that the two 1" tubes cools "substantially" better than a three-row, but I wish they had some BTU and temperature drop numbers to back it up.
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2819869
09/12/20 12:07 AM
09/12/20 12:07 AM
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Thanks. If it turns out I need more radiator, that looks like a good choice without breaking the play budget. My "no-brand" (it looks just like a Champion) has three rows of smaller tubes and a lot of them. ECP claims that the two 1" tubes cools "substantially" better than a three-row, but I wish they had some BTU and temperature drop numbers to back it up. I also have the ECP radiator in my Charger
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: jb500]
#2819937
09/12/20 10:29 AM
09/12/20 10:29 AM
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DrCharles
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What's an upper return hose? As I posted previously - "Lower hose with the old radiator could not possibly collapse (two short silicone elbows and a rigid 2" aluminum tube connecting them). Identical temp behavior with the new rad and a parts-store Gates hose." I suppose a collapse is possible but unlikely, given that the temperature reached, and the swings with the fans coming on and off, did not change one bit... Anyhow if I have it off again, I'll put a spring in it. Thanks for the tip. Flowkooler high-volume pump from Summit is allegedly coming today. I'll go take the old one out, I'm dying to know if I screwed up years ago and put a six-vane pump in it
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2819942
09/12/20 10:41 AM
09/12/20 10:41 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,054 Salem
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By the sounds of your test drive Dr Charles, I think you have air bubbles in the system trying to work their way out? I just did a water pump 2 weeks ago on one of my Magnums and it took a 40 mile drive to work it all out, while the temp swung wild: it settled down and is consistent now. At first, I just went 10 or 15 miles and it was taking antifreeze and running like a stuck thermostat, but the long drive worked and antifreeze is sitting at the same level. Perhaps others more knowledgeable can correct me though? Oh yeah, turn your heater on WFO and crank the windows when/if it climbs in temp.
Mo' Farts
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2819974
09/12/20 11:57 AM
09/12/20 11:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,012 Omaha Ne
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Thanks for the recursive post. Regarding airflow, the radiator is just sitting there behind the grill, basically open to the incoming air. I recently posted that I completely removed the fan/shroud assembly completely, and still had temps well above the t-stat opening when driving at 30 mph. Would ducting really be necessary or helpful? In your experience, at what speed does the fan stop contributing? Is 30 mph not enough? Is 30 MPH sufficient ? That is not easy to answer as the ambient temp varies, plus the heat being generated is unknown. I, like the others would suggest a higher speed say 50 or 60, especially without the baffling in place. Again i would encourage the use of a T/C as it's response is immediate and can give you a better idea of what and when things are going astray Cardboard baffles are a cheap thing to try. Do not forget the seal across the top of the core support to hood, any type of hose of foam works well for experimentation. Also be aware that all radiator cores are not created equally (IE: bean counters at work) Sometimes one gets what they pay for as a last resort Might want to give Glen Ray a call
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: TJP]
#2819983
09/12/20 12:20 PM
09/12/20 12:20 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220 West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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Every thermocouple has a time constant... some are faster than others. I experimented with EGT probes on a turbo car and found that longevity was inversely proportional to time constant (due to rugged construction) But you're right, for the absolute most accurate and repeatable temp measurements that's the way to go. I assumed (there's that word again) that mine is close since the t-stat opening temp (on 2 different 180 stats) is very close to what I see on the gauge... I just find it hard to believe that a couple of pieces of cardboard baffling are going to make a significant difference to the airflow through the radiator while driving with so much frontal area open I don't have an overheating problem at idle either, just wanted to drop 10 degrees while cruising. If the core is that marginal I need a better one anyway. I do agree that (sometimes) one gets what one pays for Glen-Ray is a bit steep for my budget but I'll buy one if I have to!
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Re: Trying to keep cool(er)
[Re: DrCharles]
#2820079
09/12/20 07:38 PM
09/12/20 07:38 PM
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Every thermocouple has a time constant... some are faster than others. I experimented with EGT probes on a turbo car and found that longevity was inversely proportional to time constant (due to rugged construction) But you're right, for the absolute most accurate and repeatable temp measurements that's the way to go. I assumed (there's that word again) that mine is close since the t-stat opening temp (on 2 different 180 stats) is very close to what I see on the gauge... I just find it hard to believe that a couple of pieces of cardboard baffling are going to make a significant difference to the airflow through the radiator while driving with so much frontal area open I don't have an overheating problem at idle either, just wanted to drop 10 degrees while cruising. If the core is that marginal I need a better one anyway. I do agree that (sometimes) one gets what one pays for Glen-Ray is a bit steep for my budget but I'll buy one if I have to! From an earlier post on a similar subject I'll politely disagree as at highway speeds one is generating more heat. I had a 69 Coronet R/T (members car) with 22 inch Radiator. Measuring the temperature with a laboratory grade thermocouple probe and digital meter. The car had the same symptoms. I could type out a novel on the things tried and hours lost. There most definitely are other things that can lead to the problem but in my experience it is generally an inefficient core or undersized radiator. The final fix was sending the radiator to from Glen ray. He said the issue lies with the quality of the cores today and their efficiency. That was about 5 years ago and last I heard it has never gone above 190 degrees PERIOD. I probably lost over 200 hours on that one. Actually completely rebuilt the motor twice. As I said I could write a novel on the things tried. This was a stock application and maintaining the stock radiator was required.
As to which is better IE: brass/copper vs aluminum. I do not think anyone can answer that question with any certainty as there are way to may variables involved. fins per inch, How they're attached, thickness of fins/ tubes, number of tubes, size of tubes, staggered tubes or not, and the list goes on
We later had a 65 GTO with the exact same issue. This car came in with a reproduction radiator that was less than a year old and a new motor. Getting a core installed from Glen rays suggested source again cured the problem. twocents beer
The post can be found here https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2739040/1.html
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