Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: TonyS451]
#2818079
09/07/20 09:22 AM
09/07/20 09:22 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213
New York
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Hundreds of millions of engines made with curves since the Model T (manual advance). Too bad they didn't realize you don't need it.
Whether you believe in it or not, physics is always there.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: TonyS451]
#2818086
09/07/20 09:44 AM
09/07/20 09:44 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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All I use to do was to set the timing so it would idle then set it for total timing.. the engine only had 2 speeds.. idle and WOT.. it would idle at 900rpm and I could drive it in the pits.. as soon as the engine started it was 200 rpm below where the curve would come in.. from there it was 35*
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: polyspheric]
#2818112
09/07/20 10:52 AM
09/07/20 10:52 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,715 Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,715
Wichita
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Hundreds of millions of engines made with curves since the Model T (manual advance). Too bad they didn't realize you don't need it.
Whether you believe in it or not, physics is always there. Comparing a custom, modern street/strip performance application to vehicles built for the masses is the most retarded thing I've seen on here. Pun intended.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: TonyS451]
#2818128
09/07/20 11:50 AM
09/07/20 11:50 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291 West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,291
West Coast, USA
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I was running a locked-out MSD Pro-billet distributor on my RB. I swapped it out with one of the recently released Progressive Ignition bluetooth programmable distributors. With some guidance from AndyF, I ended up with my own custom ignition table that lets the motor crank at a low timing setting, but as soon as it starts the timing goes to 34* by 750 rpm.
The reason I switched was to add the adjustable vacuum advance to my set-up. Now, at cruising RPM I have 44* total. Attached is an example of one of the tables I tried before settling on what I just described. It's for illustrative purposes only. The numbers in the left colum are MAP readings, which account for atmospheric pressure.
Essentially, it gives me start retard, locked-out timing and vacuum advance. It also lets me see what the timing is doing in real time and make changes on my cell phone. So far everything is working flawlessly.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: TonyS451]
#2818174
09/07/20 02:16 PM
09/07/20 02:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213
New York
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This could all be resolved by a simple test with an in-cylinder pressure transducer. It's been done, by F1, Ferrari, Mercedes, and every auto manufacturer.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: polyspheric]
#2818199
09/07/20 03:15 PM
09/07/20 03:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,840 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,840
Fulton County, PA
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I'm not dealing with OEM spec engines much. An engine that operates primarily at part throttle from idle to 3000 RPM is a different animal from a race deal that's either on or off. Or even a race deal with tags that idles around on the street some on a Saturday night.
Big, lumpy cam = >240*-245* @ .050. <10" vacuum. Usually a roller of some type.
An electronic means of retarding timing when starting, high gear retards, pulling timing at the hit on a big power, suck track deal, are all great ideas to be able to do. But some of us are doing the KISS with just a 7AL with a crank trigger and a carb deal. So basically I don't need a curve. Also, race cars should have separate start and ignition switches to be able to spin the engine with the ignition off anyway. Easy to do, even if you're still using a stock ignition switch.
Having the thing fall back 15* or 20* from total timing usually ends up making you open the carb to make it idle. Now you've upset the throttle blade/transfer slot relationship or drilled holes in the blades. Either way, you're doing stuff to the carb you wouldn't have if it had the timing in it. I typically set the throttle/transfer slot relationship by eye, install the carb and keep my fingers off the idle speed screws for all but fine adjustments. If it won't idle, I fix the reason for it. Maybe a little air bleed somewhere. Big roller, 800 RPM in gear without having my foot on the gas. Plugs a little hotter than most run, Sit and idle like that all day if I want.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: polyspheric]
#2818208
09/07/20 03:42 PM
09/07/20 03:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,715 Wichita
GY3
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,715
Wichita
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This could all be resolved by a simple test with an in-cylinder pressure transducer. It's been done, by F1, Ferrari, Mercedes, and every auto manufacturer. So you go from touting OEM "solutions" to that of multi-million dollar race teams?! I knew there was a reason I had you on ignore...
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2818228
09/07/20 05:07 PM
09/07/20 05:07 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I'm not dealing with OEM spec engines much. An engine that operates primarily at part throttle from idle to 3000 RPM is a different animal from a race deal that's either on or off. Or even a race deal with tags that idles around on the street some on a Saturday night.
Big, lumpy cam = >240*-245* @ .050. <10" vacuum. Usually a roller of some type.
An electronic means of retarding timing when starting, high gear retards, pulling timing at the hit on a big power, suck track deal, are all great ideas to be able to do. But some of us are doing the KISS with just a 7AL with a crank trigger and a carb deal. So basically I don't need a curve. Also, race cars should have separate start and ignition switches to be able to spin the engine with the ignition off anyway. Easy to do, even if you're still using a stock ignition switch.
Having the thing fall back 15* or 20* from total timing usually ends up making you open the carb to make it idle. Now you've upset the throttle blade/transfer slot relationship or drilled holes in the blades. Either way, you're doing stuff to the carb you wouldn't have if it had the timing in it. I typically set the throttle/transfer slot relationship by eye, install the carb and keep my fingers off the idle speed screws for all but fine adjustments. If it won't idle, I fix the reason for it. Maybe a little air bleed somewhere. Big roller, 800 RPM in gear without having my foot on the gas. Plugs a little hotter than most run, Sit and idle like that all day if I want. Thanks for the explanation.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: madscientist]
#2818252
09/07/20 06:14 PM
09/07/20 06:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296 Chicago, IL
TonyS451
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
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Here’s what I’ve done so far just to try some if the ideas that have been suggested:
I switched the digital 6 setting back to standard (no start retard) and starter kicked back when I tried starting.
Wired ignition on a toggle, spun engine w key switch , then added ignition on and...kick back
Went back to start retard on box, spun engine w key, added ignition on and...it started no kick back
Took car out for a nice spin around town, and parked it for 20 minutes. Tried to restart w spin engine first method and it fired up again. I’ve had similar results w just normal key and ignition on at same time, using start retard. Would still get occasional starter kick back. I don’t want to get too excited about two consecutive starts without kickback. Time will tell if the 2 switch method is the winner.
Has anyone tried a higher torque starter to deal w this issue?
2 kids and a dog
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: GY3]
#2818253
09/07/20 06:14 PM
09/07/20 06:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213
New York
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No, someone I know.
Please continue to make yourself ridiculous.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: TonyS451]
#2818254
09/07/20 06:17 PM
09/07/20 06:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,117 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,117
Oregon
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Removed duplicate post.
Last edited by AndyF; 09/07/20 07:54 PM.
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: TonyS451]
#2818259
09/07/20 06:31 PM
09/07/20 06:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213
New York
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There are really 2 very different answers to "locked: Y/N?". 1. is the position of the piston when the spark kernel begins to expand away from the ignition source. In addition to compensating for the time in milliseconds balancing piston accelerating away from TDC to advancing flame front (which dies out after perhaps 3,000 RPM), the remainder is based on the cylinder pressure (combustion, not CCP), A:F mixture, droplet size, fuel chemical characteristics, VE, and how many intermediate stages of combustion take place (before final conversion to water and CO2), and boost. 2. is how many of these are relevant to a maximum effort engine that only needs to start, idle (more or less), stage, launch and WOT. Sometimes this answer is so close to "only 1" that the exceptions are more trouble than they're worth. I've never seen an engine with idle quality exactly the same with 15° and 40° spark; the idle speed may not differ significantly but the spark position can be selected by choosing the LOUDEST position.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: jbc426]
#2818305
09/07/20 07:56 PM
09/07/20 07:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,117 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,117
Oregon
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I was running a locked-out MSD Pro-billet distributor on my RB. I swapped it out with one of the recently released Progressive Ignition bluetooth programmable distributors. With some guidance from AndyF, I ended up with my own custom ignition table that lets the motor crank at a low timing setting, but as soon as it starts the timing goes to 34* by 750 rpm.
The reason I switched was to add the adjustable vacuum advance to my set-up. Now, at cruising RPM I have 44* total. Attached is an example of one of the tables I tried before settling on what I just described. It's for illustrative purposes only. The numbers in the left colum are MAP readings, which account for atmospheric pressure.
Essentially, it gives me start retard, locked-out timing and vacuum advance. It also lets me see what the timing is doing in real time and make changes on my cell phone. So far everything is working flawlessly. That looks good to me. That table gives you everything you wanted. The programmable distributor is another option for Tony if he doesn't want to move all the way to EFI at the moment. Glad to hear that solution is working for you.
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: AndyF]
#2818335
09/07/20 08:47 PM
09/07/20 08:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296 Chicago, IL
TonyS451
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
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Tony, I have a slightly used MSD starter saver sitting in my cabinet that you can have if you want to try it. I don't need it anymore since I went digital. I assume this is the same module that you are currently using? Maybe yours is flaky so swapping in another one might eliminate that variable. No guarantees that this isn't also flaky. I never fully tested it. We used it a few times on the dyno but couldn't confirm that it was really working so we switched over to the method of spinning the engine before hitting the switch. Eventually we just went digital and EFI and built the start retard right into the map. Shoot me a PM if you want this MSD module. Thank you Andy, I might take you up on that. I’m currently using the digital 6 which has a built in start retard. I actually sent the box in to msd because I thought it was faulty. They tested the box and said it was fine. Embarrassingly enough, I bought a new digital 6 while that box was being serviced. (I was ancy and wanted get back on the road). The new box did the same thing!!..worked some of the time. Hit me up anyone who is interested in a good deal on a like new digital 6 box w clean bill of health from MsD. (Can’t make any promises on the start retard function!!) The 2 switch start seems to be working at the moment , but I’ll keep you posted. Thanks again, Andy
2 kids and a dog
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