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Re: Final Nail in the Coffin for the "Orange Box" [Re: ZIPPY] #2815173
08/30/20 05:10 PM
08/30/20 05:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,584
Fulton County, PA
C
CMcAllister Offline
Mr. Helpful
CMcAllister  Offline
Mr. Helpful
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,584
Fulton County, PA
Originally Posted by ZIPPY
The best Chrysler ECUs I ever had.... were the USA MP chrome box with black heat sink, and the standard motor products stock replacement chrome box.
I did have one orange box that worked really well, I used it until it became a rust ball but it refused to die.
All those are still in a box somewhere, as they aren't really worth anything to anyone but could be used in an emergency.
The others I've had that worked all went into cars that were sold off at some point.

I had about a half dozen orange boxes that were garbage, or failed within a few months. None of those even lasted a year in daily driving.
I had one that caused the engine to stall in exactly the same spot, every day on the way home from work.
Every diagnosis known to man was done, no problems found. Swap the box: fixed. Ridiculous.
Now: I wish I had saved a junk one, to hide an HEI module inside.

I had two brand new untested usa orange ecus.... somebody just had to have them, so I sold them as-is/at your own risk.

My take on it is, the vendor cheapened up the product until it was no good anymore. As someone who scrounged up the prints for the old
Direct Connection ECUs, put them on my desk and read them....I can tell you MP had very little say in their demise
except either 1. keep the products 2. kill the products. Eventually they were killed off.

You can blame MP for them being junk if you want to, with the rationale "they made it to MP's specs!". That's also what I would think, if I was on the outside.
But: If you knew exactly what MP's specs did, and (especially) did not consist of back then....you'd probably see what I mean.

I did have a small amount of input on the Gold Box being killed off, but that happened long before the other two.

For me, it's HEI module/Ford TFI coil for low buck upgrades, msd for street/strip.





The old expression says - "A car is made up of thousands of parts - all supplied by the lowest bidder."

Can we take that as gospel?


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Final Nail in the Coffin for the "Orange Box" [Re: CMcAllister] #2815179
08/30/20 05:24 PM
08/30/20 05:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,632
Florida STAYcation
IcorkSOAK Offline
Financed his waterbed
IcorkSOAK  Offline
Financed his waterbed

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,632
Florida STAYcation
seaMac in FB jail ? You should BAN YOURSELF from that blatant tech tyranny! tsk

And seaBee with only ONE smilie ? ... Tom must have sent him a BILL for past excessive usage laugh2

Re: Final Nail in the Coffin for the "Orange Box" [Re: CMcAllister] #2815442
08/31/20 10:27 AM
08/31/20 10:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,048
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
I Live Here
ZIPPY  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,048
S.E. Michigan
Originally Posted by CMcAllister


The old expression says - "A car is made up of thousands of parts - all supplied by the lowest bidder."

Can we take that as gospel?


Don't have a "yes/no" answer for that.

I try like heck to look at things like that from all sides including marketer, tier 1, then multiple tier 2s and so on.
Whether that is a blessing or a weakness is for someone else to decide, I don't really care.

I'll admit....sometimes it's a waste of time to even consider, as there's nothing we can do about it, but whatever.

From past experience....those boxes were probably the best they ever were, during the era when they were being used on production vehicles
and for a short while after.

What was the last vehicle to use one? (not a challenge, as I have no idea).
Maybe 1980-something?
When they were used on production vehicles, the sales volumes were highest.
OE stops using the part, volumes go in the dump. Tens of thousands or more vehicles are scrapped/attrition.
Service parts volumes go in the dump.
Performance parts volumes (which were always far less than service parts) go in the dump even more.

This is the point the part should probably be killed off....
But there is money to be made, and vehicles do need it for service+boy racer stuff.

Tier 2s (component suppliers) jack up the piece price because you aren't buying 47000 transistors per year anymore,
now it's only 1500. The painter and plater jack up their piece price because you don't need as many cases finished anymore.
Tier 1 takes cost out wherever possible to try to keep the profit. Tier 2s are told we need low cost solutions for every piece
and every process, everyone obliges... on and on down the line.

Everyone trying to make money off of a part that should probably just be put out of it's misery.

That's the usual downward spiral.
'
Those ECUs were usually pretty good, around 1988 or so, but things changed.

Some don't care about the whole story and feel the past is meaningless/and that is OK.
I've been a parts geek for too long to drop old habits.

Gut the "goop" out of one sometime, they're pretty funny to check out internally. There's almost nothing going on there
and often a ground wire is just laying against the case/failure waiting to happen.








Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: Final Nail in the Coffin for the "Orange Box" [Re: ZIPPY] #2815468
08/31/20 11:20 AM
08/31/20 11:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,821
Sobieski Wi
B
bee1971 Offline
master
bee1971  Offline
master
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,821
Sobieski Wi
Pictures

My Mopar ECU would say around 2000 I bought it new

Don’t have any idea on what’s failing at higher RPM



Also

Cheap Borg Warner made in the USA

And some Chinese knockoff from Mancini

As some of you know , I have been chasing RPM issues on my 383/432 Stroker ever since I put it together - All above 5,000 RPM , like a rev limiter was kicking in

Some mentioned lifters (Comp XE 275 HL) E Street 75cc heads - Others valve springs - Some mentioned nature of the camshaft

Fuel pressure and of course ignition - Eliminated fuel pressure by taping a gauge to my windshield at the point of 5,000 RPM

Two different carbs - One a brand new 800 AVS2 - Float levels - Jetting - Needles / Seats

Trying to put a Chinese ignition combo together correctly in today’s age is like - Coils are no better , MSD and Pertronix all failed , hot and overheat and just fail

Ballast - Ballast bypass , blah blah blah

All three of those ECU s failed above 5,000 RPM - They all ran fine on start and cruise - None ever failed completely

For some odd reason I didn’t want that MSD ignition box under the hood - But looking back chasing my ass I wish I would of

Anyways , problem solved , at least for piece of mind it was always Ignition related I know now

F327388B-C4F2-470C-BF1D-23FC6D9A2012.jpegCB545A8A-E6DA-409E-B57B-AEC564D95F9D.jpeg

1971 Dodge Charger Superbee
2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded
Siberian Huskies
Re: Final Nail in the Coffin for the "Orange Box" [Re: J_BODY] #2815478
08/31/20 11:35 AM
08/31/20 11:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,530
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline
I Live Here
an8sec70cuda  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,530
Marion, South Carolina [><]
Originally Posted by J_BODY
In my version of “purple shafts and pinion snubbers” mopar guy ways.... I’m still using a MSD 6AL. I just can’t make that leap to the programmable stuff. Prob has something to do with thinking about how my Racepak fought me and won most the time. Do I REALLY want to rely on stuff like that to run the car??. laugh2


LOL, I'm in the same boat! All our cars use the old style MSD 6AL boxes. I tried an MSD Digital 6 box back when they first came out in 2002 or 2003 I believe. Had misfire issues w/ 2 brand new boxes. Went back to the old 6AL and all was well.
As much as I hate computers, I can't bring myself to go to one of the new programmable systems yet. I know it'd benefit my setup, but all that fancy stuff works great...until it doesn't.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon 340, no drivetrain, on blocks behind the barn
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Final Nail in the Coffin for the "Orange Box" [Re: bee1971] #2815522
08/31/20 12:55 PM
08/31/20 12:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,256
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,256
Oregon
That was the same issue I had with both chrome and orange boxes back around 2000. They would start and run fine on the street but on the dyno they would just shoot ducks. Replaced with MSD and engine pulled hard to redline. That was when I gave up on the Mopar style ignition stuff.

Re: Final Nail in the Coffin for the "Orange Box" [Re: AndyF] #2815541
08/31/20 01:45 PM
08/31/20 01:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,048
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
I Live Here
ZIPPY  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,048
S.E. Michigan
My Garbage in the late '90s.

Searching for more speed, back to back testing of chrome vs orange at the track.
"A/B/A/B...PFFT....lets try something else now"
I'm pretty sure this was one of those days almost nobody was there and I made like 18 runs! Good times.

Inexplicably the chrome box seemed to start easier but they ran identical ET/mph.

Both would go 6200 which is all I trusted the 100,000 mile cast pistons for.

I still ran an external soft touch rev limiter as I didn't necessarily trust myself in the heat of the moment.

Pretty sure this particular orange box is in the landfill somewhere as it eventually croaked on a daily driver.
This particular chrome box is somewhere in a storage tote here at home, and refuses to die.
I threw together an ignition and fired my 572 Hemi up with it back in April.

2 boxes.jpg

Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: Final Nail in the Coffin for the "Orange Box" [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2815715
08/31/20 10:33 PM
08/31/20 10:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,121
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline
master
mopar dave  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,121
Mt Morris Michigan
Had same experience, The digital 6 was the worst box i ever owner. I did every trick per msd and the misfire never went away til i replaced it with a mallory. My mopar chrome box was circa late 70's issue and was on the car when i bought it in 96.

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