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Re: Vapor Separator? [Re: 72roadrunnergtx] #280701
04/09/09 11:26 AM
04/09/09 11:26 AM
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71383beep Offline OP
top fuel
71383beep  Offline OP
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Quote:

If it were me, I’d been looking at the carburetor for internal leakage. If you’re running a Holley, possible causes can be metering block gaskets, warped metering block and or main body. Power valves can develop pin hole leaks in their diagrams. Anything allowing fuel to slowly drip into the manifold would create hot start issues and may not be noticeable at all on cold starts.




Good point.

the carb is a mighty Demon 650. It's got the glass bowl sights and I have always noticed it at the correct levels. Cold starts always fire right away on the first or second try. For these reasons I supected a vapor lock issue. I have not pulle the AC off when in this condition to see if the bowls are empty. I will be sure to do this.

From what I am gathering from this post though is that my fuel/emission system is not quite running properly since it is a CA car and that in itself is not good either. I think I will pursue getting a separator and a return line. From what I see it can't really hurt at this point.

Don't get me wrong this is not a HUGE problem. It is intermittant and it is anoying when it happens, but by no means does it stop me from driving it.


'73 GK6 Challenger Rallye - 340 4-Speed
Re: Vapor Separator? [Re: 72roadrunnergtx] #280702
04/09/09 11:46 AM
04/09/09 11:46 AM
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mark7171 Offline
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Quote:

The b-bodies in 71 thru mid-year 72’ had the fuel tank vapor separator located in the driver’s side rear wheel well. The hard line running up to the breather cap in 71’ is the tank’s vent line. Any fuel vapors evaporating from the tank while the car was at rest would be collected in the crankcase to be consumed at next start up via the PCV valve. Any vacuum present in that line would be equal to that of the crankcase while running nothing more.
Mid–year 72’ had a redesigned tank vapor separator much smaller and located just forward of the tank. Enclosed carb bowl vents in 71’also connected to the breather cap for the same reason. 72’ had these evaporative lines connected to the charcoal canisters.
Not to be confused with the fuel supply line vapor separators that were installed to resolve vapor lock conditions on some big-block/California cars and as mentioned required a return line.

72 1/2' and up vapor seporator






Thats the craziest thing i've seen. The timming unit gets it's advance curve from a balance of carb vacuum and crankcase pressure. My nuts.

Last edited by mark7171; 04/09/09 11:49 AM.
Re: Vapor Separator? [Re: 71383beep] #280703
04/09/09 12:22 PM
04/09/09 12:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 765
Shoreline, Washington
72roadrunnergtx Offline
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The fuel tank vapor separator on these cars at about that time, were simply the first steps at capture and reuse evaporating unburned hydrocarbons (fuel vapors). Prior to that, automotive fuel tanks and carbs were allowed to vent openly to the atmosphere. A correctly functioning fuel tank vapor separator system is one of the so called “emissions” systems that will not adversely effect “street” performance. Can you get away without it? Sure, but you will need to provide a way for the tank to vent. If it were me I would be looking for a replacement separator and make sure all the rubber hoses were in good shape and clamped tightly.
I have seen over the years the vent line at inner fender caped off on a lot of cars, assuming the rest of tank vent system is intact, this seals off the tank altogether and could lead to fuel starvation or a possible tank collapse if the wrong filler cap is used.
Not all that familiar with the Demons but understand they are not quite as vulnerable to some of the Holley’s leaking gaskets and warped bodies. I think I would get it good and hot, shut it down, open the hood and pull the air cleaner off, wait the 30mins, see if it starts any better. Could simply be the same thing described above were bowl vapors collect in the air cleaner.


1972 Road Runner GTX 440 6bbl 5-speed
[img]http://72rrgtx.com/carpics/bucket/DSC06730r-1.jpg[/img]
Re: Vapor Separator? [Re: mark7171] #280704
04/09/09 12:34 PM
04/09/09 12:34 PM
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Shoreline, Washington
72roadrunnergtx Offline
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That diagram is from the 72’ FSM, first year for the charcoal canister. The 72’ canister had two metering orifices to control air movement through the canister back to the intake via a tee tap into the PCV line. One orifice was controlled by a diagram connected to the timed vacuum advance port. Basically at idle only the .030” orifice was in play, anything off-idle brought other .055 orifice in. It did not affect the function or timing of the vacuum advance. The vacuum line for the canister diagram was “teed” into the vacuum advance line. 73’and up canisters were of the three line design, without dual orifice and the diaphragm.


1972 Road Runner GTX 440 6bbl 5-speed
[img]http://72rrgtx.com/carpics/bucket/DSC06730r-1.jpg[/img]
Re: Vapor Separator? [Re: 72roadrunnergtx] #280705
04/09/09 02:20 PM
04/09/09 02:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 878
hudson valley n.y.
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GEORGE68HEMIRR Offline
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when it doesnt start pull the air cleaner and look inside the carb.....if its all wet and maybe dripping inside or you see gas leaking at the butterflies outside the carb your fuel bowls are set too high.....this will flood it out and cause a hard start which you stated you have to floor it to get it started......this is the first thing i would look at......good luck!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Vapor Separator? [Re: whitemtnelf] #280706
04/09/09 09:13 PM
04/09/09 09:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 831
Race City USA Mooresville N.C...
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Ts road runner Offline
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Found this and thought I'd pass it along. http://cgi.ebay.com/71-72-Road-Runner-Wh...6QQcmdZViewItem


SOUTHERN BORN-SOUTHERN BREED-SOUTHERN DEAD
Re: Vapor Separator? [Re: 72roadrunnergtx] #280707
04/09/09 09:48 PM
04/09/09 09:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,261
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mark7171 Offline
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Quote:

That diagram is from the 72’ FSM, first year for the charcoal canister. The 72’ canister had two metering orifices to control air movement through the canister back to the intake via a tee tap into the PCV line. One orifice was controlled by a diagram connected to the timed vacuum advance port. Basically at idle only the .030” orifice was in play, anything off-idle brought other .055 orifice in. It did not affect the function or timing of the vacuum advance. The vacuum line for the canister diagram was “teed” into the vacuum advance line. 73’and up canisters were of the three line design, without dual orifice and the diaphragm.




You history is correct. Just commenting on the poor performance and things-o-plenty to fail .

A vented cap would due, and not lead to TANK COLLAPSE! Strategically we need our tanks on the battle feild.

Re: Vapor Separator? [Re: Ts road runner] #280708
04/09/09 11:05 PM
04/09/09 11:05 PM
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71rm23 Offline
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Quote:

Found this and thought I'd pass it along. http://cgi.ebay.com/71-72-Road-Runner-Wh...6QQcmdZViewItem


Don't hink I've ever seen this on a '71. But yet, I'm not that far as to the restoration on my car.

Re: Vapor Separator? [Re: 71rm23] #280709
04/10/09 11:07 AM
04/10/09 11:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,647
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71383beep Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

Found this and thought I'd pass it along. http://cgi.ebay.com/71-72-Road-Runner-Wh...6QQcmdZViewItem


Don't hink I've ever seen this on a '71. But yet, I'm not that far as to the restoration on my car.




I've got one...those are the shields for the separator. The L shaped bracket goes behind the wheel well and protects the 5 hoses that lead to the separator. The flat squarish plate bolts to the separator which goes in the rear left wheel well.

I was wondering if the actual separator can come apart. After 30+ years i have to imagine that something may have gotten in there and made a home or something. Hornets nest or something. If that thing is all gunked up I can imagine have problems too.

On another subject i checked out fine lines and right stuff yesterday for the return line. Apparently it is a 1/4" return line, but Fine lines lists 2 different lines for 71 & 72. Naturally they are different prices $70/$100 IIRC which tell me they are probably different lengths or configurations. Do you think this is the 1/2 year changeover for the evap system? Or difference between CA cars and others?

Right stuff just lists 1 line for $59 so you can see where I am going here...I just want to be sure to get the right line I guess.


'73 GK6 Challenger Rallye - 340 4-Speed
Re: Vapor Separator? [Re: 71383beep] #280710
04/10/09 12:42 PM
04/10/09 12:42 PM
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Posts: 2,592
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71rm23 Offline
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Thanks for the info 71383Bee. I'll be on the look out for the sheilds on my '71 RR

Re: Vapor Separator? [Re: 71383beep] #280711
04/10/09 07:14 PM
04/10/09 07:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,065
Milwaukee, WI
In_The_Pink Offline
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Quote:

I was wondering if the actual separator can come apart. After 30+ years i have to imagine that something may have gotten in there and made a home or something. Hornets nest or something. If that thing is all gunked up I can imagine have problems too.




I'm going to say no, based on the '71 B-van separator I have. The bungs are welded/brazed to the bottom cap, and the entire unit is sealed.

I would try blowing compressed air through each port, capping tree and leaving one other port open. You should be able to tell quickly if or which ports are fully open as they should be.

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