Rack and pinion with stock-ish suspension?
#2792512
07/04/20 03:16 AM
07/04/20 03:16 AM
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cudabill
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I'm repairing my '70 Barracuda from back to front, still a long way from the front, but thinking about daily driver suspension with a modern feel. Just want to keep up with modern cars in traffic on modern performance rubber. I do plan to keep the heavy 383.
Mini-tubbed it since I replaced about all the rear sheet metal, may or may not narrow the rear axle. Will add chassis stiffeners also, but plan to keep drum brakes in the rear. Haven't yet started spring relocation, before I start cutting, for a modern ride, is it worth it to instead go 4-link?
Up front I don't see a need to replace the torsion springs but want the feel of rack and pinion. Is that a common way to go, or is it normal for everyone to spend $5-8K on tubular front?
Last edited by cudabill; 07/04/20 03:36 AM.
Current:'70 Barracuda 383 Gran Coupe project, Past highlights: Datsun roadster/Olds V8, Porsche 924/buick V6, '89 IROC-Z, '00 Vette/procharged LS3, ML63, 335i, 914, 944T, '39 LaSalle sedan project
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Re: Rack and pinion with stock-ish suspension?
[Re: jcc]
#2792827
07/05/20 02:07 AM
07/05/20 02:07 AM
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Joined: Jul 2017
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cudabill
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What I'm reading is rack and pinion is not recommended unless you do a full frame (like a Schwartz g-machine frame), and there's no reason for a tubular k-member unless you need clearance for headers.
So seems like leaf springs and stock k-member suspension is the way to go for a street car.
Last time I drove a '60s muscle car was a '69 big block Camaro, it felt like a pickup truck.
Current:'70 Barracuda 383 Gran Coupe project, Past highlights: Datsun roadster/Olds V8, Porsche 924/buick V6, '89 IROC-Z, '00 Vette/procharged LS3, ML63, 335i, 914, 944T, '39 LaSalle sedan project
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Re: Rack and pinion with stock-ish suspension?
[Re: cudabill]
#2792828
07/05/20 02:23 AM
07/05/20 02:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,480 So Cal
autoxcuda
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What I'm reading is rack and pinion is not recommended unless you do a full frame (like a Schwartz g-machine frame), and there's no reason for a tubular k-member unless you need clearance for headers.
So seems like leaf springs and stock k-member suspension is the way to go for a street car.
Last time I drove a '60s muscle car was a '69 big block Camaro, it felt like a pickup truck. What does your Cuda drive like before you started working on it?
Last edited by autoxcuda; 07/05/20 02:24 AM.
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Re: Rack and pinion with stock-ish suspension?
[Re: autoxcuda]
#2792833
07/05/20 03:51 AM
07/05/20 03:51 AM
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cudabill
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Slow and brief. I bought it not running, and got it running enough to move it in and out of my shop at home.
Current:'70 Barracuda 383 Gran Coupe project, Past highlights: Datsun roadster/Olds V8, Porsche 924/buick V6, '89 IROC-Z, '00 Vette/procharged LS3, ML63, 335i, 914, 944T, '39 LaSalle sedan project
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Re: Rack and pinion with stock-ish suspension?
[Re: cudabill]
#2792843
07/05/20 06:36 AM
07/05/20 06:36 AM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,954 ohio
ruderunner
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I drive my 69 B body a lot, I don't think it's too far off from newer standards. At least for daily driving. Admittedly the steering coupler and pitman are getting loose.
I did rebuild the front end with urethane bushings and the offset upper bushings to get camber to negative. 5 and caster to 2.5.
Im looking to do better tires, shocks and sway bars. Im plenty happy with the original springs
Unless you're building a track car, I don't think you need much more than that.
Angry white pureblood male
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Re: Rack and pinion with stock-ish suspension?
[Re: cudabill]
#2792950
07/05/20 12:45 PM
07/05/20 12:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,078 Oregon
AndyF
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What I'm reading is rack and pinion is not recommended unless you do a full frame (like a Schwartz g-machine frame), and there's no reason for a tubular k-member unless you need clearance for headers.
So seems like leaf springs and stock k-member suspension is the way to go for a street car.
Last time I drove a '60s muscle car was a '69 big block Camaro, it felt like a pickup truck. I wrote a whole book on the subject so I'd say start by reading the book. The short summary is that Mopar musclecars were designed 50 years ago using 50 year old tools and techniques. The early unibody designs are flexible which makes the car feel funny in a corner. They didn't feel funny 50 years ago but now that people have 20 years of experience driving solid cars a muscle car feels flexible when you go around a corner. If you are willing to cut and weld on a musclecar then add subframe connectors, torque boxes, inner fender supports, additional cross members, shock supports, etc. Once you have the chassis as stiff as you are willing to make it then do a total rebuild of the suspension and use high quality shocks (Koni, Fox or Bilstein) use modern upper a arms (Firm Feel or Hotchkis) use high rate torsion bars, use a big anti-sway bar and have the steering box rebuilt and tightened up (Firm Feel). After you do all of that the car will handle okay. Kind of like a new Honda. Not like a new BMW or Porsche but well enough that you'll feel comfortable driving it at 50 mph around a curve that says 35 mph.
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Re: Rack and pinion with stock-ish suspension?
[Re: AndyF]
#2793155
07/05/20 09:40 PM
07/05/20 09:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,732 Bitopia
jcc
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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"Handling" is a very subjective goal.. Modern day "handing: IMO, if mainly looking for bang for buck, A Miata and a new big bad Vette comes to mind at the top of the list. I'll still always take my old Mopars, but it will never compare to a long list of modern cars, at any budget I have or would care to spend.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Rack and pinion with stock-ish suspension?
[Re: AndyF]
#2793221
07/06/20 03:10 AM
07/06/20 03:10 AM
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cudabill
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Gotcha, this car was pretty far gone and not a special combo (383 2bbl Gran Coupe) so I can cut and weld and stiffen it up. It's nice to be able to read a book and learn from the pains of others. Thanks AndyF!
Current:'70 Barracuda 383 Gran Coupe project, Past highlights: Datsun roadster/Olds V8, Porsche 924/buick V6, '89 IROC-Z, '00 Vette/procharged LS3, ML63, 335i, 914, 944T, '39 LaSalle sedan project
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Re: Rack and pinion with stock-ish suspension?
[Re: topside]
#2793324
07/06/20 11:01 AM
07/06/20 11:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,452 Michigan
MarkZ
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Borgeson box and steering coupler from Bergman. You're not going to get any better than that utilitzing factory style parts. It eliminates the slop at 12 o' clock, tightens the steering up and adds more ratio. I bought two of their boxes and have been very pleased with the results. Feels like rack and pinion. If you go the route do yourself a favor and order a pump to go along with it as well since it has the correct valving to match the box. You can get everything through Bergman Autocraft.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Rack and pinion with stock-ish suspension?
[Re: AndyF]
#2793359
07/06/20 11:55 AM
07/06/20 11:55 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 270 Mountain View, CA
68rrunner
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What I'm reading is rack and pinion is not recommended unless you do a full frame (like a Schwartz g-machine frame), and there's no reason for a tubular k-member unless you need clearance for headers.
So seems like leaf springs and stock k-member suspension is the way to go for a street car.
Last time I drove a '60s muscle car was a '69 big block Camaro, it felt like a pickup truck. I wrote a whole book on the subject so I'd say start by reading the book. The short summary is that Mopar musclecars were designed 50 years ago using 50 year old tools and techniques. The early unibody designs are flexible which makes the car feel funny in a corner. They didn't feel funny 50 years ago but now that people have 20 years of experience driving solid cars a muscle car feels flexible when you go around a corner. If you are willing to cut and weld on a musclecar then add subframe connectors, torque boxes, inner fender supports, additional cross members, shock supports, etc. Once you have the chassis as stiff as you are willing to make it then do a total rebuild of the suspension and use high quality shocks (Koni, Fox or Bilstein) use modern upper a arms (Firm Feel or Hotchkis) use high rate torsion bars, use a big anti-sway bar and have the steering box rebuilt and tightened up (Firm Feel). After you do all of that the car will handle okay. Kind of like a new Honda. Not like a new BMW or Porsche but well enough that you'll feel comfortable driving it at 50 mph around a curve that says 35 mph. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kASM04zuHlo We can do a lot better than most modern muscle cars and a few imports
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Re: Rack and pinion with stock-ish suspension?
[Re: cudabill]
#2793581
07/06/20 06:38 PM
07/06/20 06:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,078 Oregon
AndyF
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I Win
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Gotcha, this car was pretty far gone and not a special combo (383 2bbl Gran Coupe) so I can cut and weld and stiffen it up. It's nice to be able to read a book and learn from the pains of others. Thanks AndyF! I spent several years designing and building parts with Tim for his red Valiant. That car would go 160 mph on the front straight at Portland International and he would drive it to work but it wasn't much fun to ride in. It was kind of brutal actually. Lowered, no noise insulation, no radio, no AC, no heater, etc. And while that car was one of the fastest Mopars around, it couldn't consistently beat production mid-level super car such as a Z06 or a race influenced Porsche with a good driver. The total outlay of time and money into the Valiant was at least equal to the cost of a Z06 but it wasn't as good of a car. That is just simple economics. Hard for a guy in his garage to beat 50 years of factory engineering and their economies of scale. Moral of the story is to have fun and enjoy yourself. Trying to re-engineer a 50 year old musclecar is probably a doomed effort unless you have an exceptional skill set and/or professional help.
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Re: Rack and pinion with stock-ish suspension?
[Re: AndyF]
#2793590
07/06/20 06:59 PM
07/06/20 06:59 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,326 nowhere
Sniper
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Moral of the story is to have fun and enjoy yourself. Trying to re-engineer a 50 year old musclecar is probably a doomed effort unless you have an exceptional skill set and/or professional help.
Or a Valiant body on a Z06 chassis
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Re: Rack and pinion with stock-ish suspension?
[Re: Sniper]
#2793748
07/07/20 02:32 AM
07/07/20 02:32 AM
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 37 SF Bay Area
cudabill
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A previous car I owned was a '00 Corvette, bought with a procharger for $40k. Two supercharger upgrades, three forged engines and two transmissions etc. cost another $35k, the more power it had, the less traction it had even downshifting on the freeway. Ended up driving it slow and carefully, and left me wistfully browsing ads for $70k Ferrari 360s. It's an illness.
This Barracudas project though is about hands-on experience and the journey.
Current:'70 Barracuda 383 Gran Coupe project, Past highlights: Datsun roadster/Olds V8, Porsche 924/buick V6, '89 IROC-Z, '00 Vette/procharged LS3, ML63, 335i, 914, 944T, '39 LaSalle sedan project
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