Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
#2781454
06/04/20 05:35 PM
06/04/20 05:35 PM
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jeff968
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does anyone know of a good Chevelle board? A buddy and I are looking for an answer to this question:
In the current Hemming's muscle machines in the 69 Chevelle SS profile it states the 396 was increased in size to 402 later in the 69 model year. meaning that some 69s got the 402. My buddy swears it was a year later meaning that all 69s got 396s and 70 was the year that had both.
Sorry for the non-mopar post.
Thx
1970 Dodge Challenger T/A
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: jeff968]
#2781480
06/04/20 07:00 PM
06/04/20 07:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,663 E.Amherst, NY
69RR
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does anyone know of a good Chevelle board? A buddy and I are looking for an answer to this question:
In the current Hemming's muscle machines in the 69 Chevelle SS profile it states the 396 was increased in size to 402 later in the 69 model year. meaning that some 69s got the 402. My buddy swears it was a year later meaning that all 69s got 396s and 70 was the year that had both.
Sorry for the non-mopar post.
Thx Team Chevelle would be the place - I'm on there now that I have 67 SS. Some very knowledgeable people on board - like here.
Dean
Got my hands on the wheel, foot to the pedal, gonna drive this car till the tires turn to metal - gonna sleep when I'm dead and laugh at the devil..
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: jeff968]
#2781491
06/04/20 07:29 PM
06/04/20 07:29 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,630 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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in a cattle trailer down by th...
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does anyone know of a good Chevelle board? A buddy and I are looking for an answer to this question:
In the current Hemming's muscle machines in the 69 Chevelle SS profile it states the 396 was increased in size to 402 later in the 69 model year. meaning that some 69s got the 402. My buddy swears it was a year later meaning that all 69s got 396s and 70 was the year that had both.
Sorry for the non-mopar post.
Thx Seriously, no one can tell the difference in 6 cubic inches.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost coming soon! 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: jeff968]
#2781521
06/04/20 08:53 PM
06/04/20 08:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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AndyF
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When I was a kid we used to think that the 396 was the hot setup and that the 402 was a dog. Not sure why, that was just the "word on the street" back then. But really if they both were built with the same parts then they should run just the same. The L98 402 was pretty stout with 375 hp rating. I'm not sure on the '69 and '70 thing. Officially the SS 396 was actually a 402 in 1970 but it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that some of the '69 cars got 402 engines. The factory wouldn't care that much about that stuff. They just put them together with the parts they have on hand.
Last edited by AndyF; 06/04/20 08:53 PM.
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#2781535
06/04/20 09:41 PM
06/04/20 09:41 PM
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Posts: 21,819 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
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does anyone know of a good Chevelle board? A buddy and I are looking for an answer to this question:
In the current Hemming's muscle machines in the 69 Chevelle SS profile it states the 396 was increased in size to 402 later in the 69 model year. meaning that some 69s got the 402. My buddy swears it was a year later meaning that all 69s got 396s and 70 was the year that had both.
Sorry for the non-mopar post.
Thx Seriously, no one can tell the difference in 6 cubic inches. I don’t think that is the point. And a micrometer certainly can.
Last edited by Pacnorthcuda; 06/04/20 09:41 PM.
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#2781558
06/04/20 11:10 PM
06/04/20 11:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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slantzilla
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The 402 kinda got overshadowed by the 454.
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: 6bblgt]
#2781585
06/05/20 01:46 AM
06/05/20 01:46 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,900 Gabba Gabba Hey! NYC
Diego (not Ted)
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the 402 is to the 396 (Hollander lists the change as late '69 model year) as the 400 is to the 383 I kinda disagree with this, but only for this reason: All engines experienced a natural progression of cubic inches. The BBC started with 396 and went to 427 and 454. The 402 in between that sequence may or may not have been for some emissions reason, but notice the increase was marginal. Compare it to the B engine, which went from 350 to 361 and 383 and 400. Notice the last leap was 17 cid, which was not insignificant. This site ( http://www.chevellestuff.net/1970/70ss.htm) suggests engines under/over 400cid had different emissions regulations, and tweaking the 396 to tip over 400 may have solved the issue. But what was the issue? Regarding the OP's query, I don't have the article in question, but let me offer an opinion that Hemmings is wrong when talking about Chevelles and partially correct when talking about the Camaro. For most of the Chevys, the model year began in Sept, but the Camaro was delayed into the beginning of 1970. Hence, 1969 Camaro production was extended into November or December 1969. I would think these cars built in August through the end of the year came with 402s. Wanna hear something confusing? The 402, as optioned in Chevelles that were not SSs, was called the 400. So there was a 402 that was marketed as a 396 AND a 400 (and, no, not to be confused with the 400 SBC)!
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: Diego (not Ted)]
#2781626
06/05/20 09:57 AM
06/05/20 09:57 AM
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jeff968
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here is the section from the article.
1970 Dodge Challenger T/A
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: Diego (not Ted)]
#2781647
06/05/20 11:01 AM
06/05/20 11:01 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,560 Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
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the 402 is to the 396 (Hollander lists the change as late '69 model year) as the 400 is to the 383 I kinda disagree with this, but only for this reason: All engines experienced a natural progression of cubic inches. The BBC started with 396 and went to 427 and 454. The 402 in between that sequence may or may not have been for some emissions reason, but notice the increase was marginal. Compare it to the B engine, which went from 350 to 361 and 383 and 400. Notice the last leap was 17 cid, which was not insignificant. This site ( http://www.chevellestuff.net/1970/70ss.htm) suggests engines under/over 400cid had different emissions regulations, and tweaking the 396 to tip over 400 may have solved the issue. But what was the issue? Regarding the OP's query, I don't have the article in question, but let me offer an opinion that Hemmings is wrong when talking about Chevelles and partially correct when talking about the Camaro. For most of the Chevys, the model year began in Sept, but the Camaro was delayed into the beginning of 1970. Hence, 1969 Camaro production was extended into November or December 1969. I would think these cars built in August through the end of the year came with 402s. Wanna hear something confusing? The 402, as optioned in Chevelles that were not SSs, was called the 400. So there was a 402 that was marketed as a 396 AND a 400 (and, no, not to be confused with the 400 SBC)! C10 pickups were the same way. A Cheyenne badged as a 400 would have a 402 in it. Kevin
Last edited by Twostick; 06/05/20 11:03 AM.
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: Neil]
#2781749
06/05/20 02:02 PM
06/05/20 02:02 PM
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Posts: 17,516 Las Vegas, NV
6bblgt
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have you ever seen a 396 with a smog pump, how about a 402? additional components cost $$$ (the minimal increase in displacement was a cost consideration, a new block was not engineered) in the mid-'70s 440s received smog pumps in CA (low production quantities) but was not required on the 400 (larger production numbers offset the costs bringing the new engine to production) & to save costs, Chrysler Corp. wanted the new "B" engine to share its bore with the 440 at 4.320", but with the 3.375 "B" engine stroke that would've been 396 cu.in. (wasn't going to happen ) someone suggested "400 cu.in." sounded better & bore was increased to 4.342"
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: second 70]
#2781815
06/05/20 04:53 PM
06/05/20 04:53 PM
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11secdart
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Although I am a diehard Mopar guy, I have always liked Chevelles .. this is my friends 70 a former Super/Stock car now a street car. He bought it from his good friend who was the original owner.. car is gorgeous!
Last edited by 11secdart; 06/05/20 04:57 PM.
68 Dart 410 / 904 92 D150 original owner 21 Ram 1500 Quad Cab, Big Horn , Hemi ,4x4 23 Audi Q5 16 Honda HRV
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: AndyF]
#2781831
06/05/20 06:05 PM
06/05/20 06:05 PM
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Diego (not Ted)
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That 402 had a real identity crisis. I think the marketing folks knew that the 402 was considered a dog so they didn't want to tell anyone about it. Weird stuff. The only one considering it a dog is you. In 1970, the top 402 had solid lifters and 375 horses. This engine, known as the L78, is pretty famous. The 402/330 that was introduced for regular Chevelles and the Monte Carlo is known as the LS3. It continued on for a few more years. being rated at 300 horses in 1971 and I can't remember what in 1972. How does that compare with dog 383s and 400s from 1971 and beyond? Like I suggested, it's just your perception.
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: AndyF]
#2782157
06/06/20 03:44 PM
06/06/20 03:44 PM
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Diego (not Ted)
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If the marketing guys thought the 402 was something special then they would not have called the car the SS 396. Actually, it’s quite the opposite—there was tremendous brand equity with the SS396 name. Why ruin it? You’re still failing to realize the 402’s heyday is the low-compression era, even though it was introduced in 1970. Its reputation is no different than a 400 B engine, 400 Pontiac, or any other mid-level engine from the era.
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: AndyF]
#2782222
06/06/20 06:54 PM
06/06/20 06:54 PM
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Spaceman Spiff
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If the marketing guys thought the 402 was something special then they would not have called the car the SS 396. People back then thought the 402 was a dog even though it was basically the same as the 396. Just got a bad rap, same as the 400. The marketing guys didn’t call it a 402 because: 1. The 396 was an already established engine. 2. SS 396 sounds better than SS 402.
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: Spaceman Spiff]
#2782267
06/06/20 09:21 PM
06/06/20 09:21 PM
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AndyF
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If the marketing guys thought the 402 was something special then they would not have called the car the SS 396. People back then thought the 402 was a dog even though it was basically the same as the 396. Just got a bad rap, same as the 400. The marketing guys didn’t call it a 402 because: 1. The 396 was an already established engine. 2. SS 396 sounds better than SS 402. Maybe, but why did they also call it a 400 rather than a 402? It seems pretty clear that they didn't like the 402 name since they didn't use it. I don't know why they didn't like it but it is obvious that they didn't want to advertise it. Kind of reminds me of when GM put the Olds 403 in the Trans Am. They didn't call it by its name either at first. GM ending up paying something like $40M to settle a lawsuit over that.
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: Diego (not Ted)]
#2782417
06/07/20 03:00 PM
06/07/20 03:00 PM
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slantzilla
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I thought the Firebirds with the Pontiac motors had 400 on the shakers and the 403 had 6.6?
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: slantzilla]
#2782428
06/07/20 03:34 PM
06/07/20 03:34 PM
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3hundred
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I thought the Firebirds with the Pontiac motors had 400 on the shakers and the 403 had 6.6? I think the auto cars got the 6.6 liter sticker and 4 speeds got TA 6.6 (400/220 hp)? I can't recall for sure anymore, and I may be mixing up years here, at the dealer the "official" way was to look at the VIN, if there was a K (I don't recall the 400 code anymore) in it, it was a 403, it not a 400. What we really did was open the hood. The 403 was a tire smoking torque monster, pretty well out of breath by 20 MPH. The base 400 was stronger overall even if the bottom end was a bit softer. The 220 hp 400 was impressive for the time. The later turbo cars were soft on the bottom end but after they came up on boost they ran strong. Anyway, FWIW, best I can recall 40+ years later. edit: a memory returned, I'm only talking about 1977 and later. 1977 was the first year for 403 in a Pontiac. And Buick 350's in the big cars...
Last edited by 3hundred; 06/07/20 03:51 PM.
'68 Fury Convertible '69 300 Convertible '15 Durango 5.7 Hemi '16 300 S Hemi
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: 6bblgt]
#2782487
06/07/20 06:23 PM
06/07/20 06:23 PM
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3hundred
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T/A SHAKER stickers originally: 6.6 LITRE = 403 Oldsmobile T/A 6.6 = 400 Pontiac I think the T/A was only on the 220 hp 400, not the standard version. I can't recall the standard 400 HP but it was better than the 403 / 180 hp. Does W72 sound familiar, that might have been the 220 hp engine? I remember WS6 was a handling option? Included 4 wheel disc brakes? I know if it was as easy as the sticker they wouldn't have had us checking VINS for codes. 2¢
'68 Fury Convertible '69 300 Convertible '15 Durango 5.7 Hemi '16 300 S Hemi
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Re: Chevelle board? A question on the 396/402
[Re: 6bblgt]
#2782491
06/07/20 06:53 PM
06/07/20 06:53 PM
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6bblgt
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stickers can be easily changed/removed - yes a dealership would have you confirm the original engine installation by the VIN Oldsmobile 403 (VIN code "K - 6.6 LITRE") was 1977-79 ONLY & the ONLY Pontiac 400 available 1977-'79 (VIN code "Z" - T/A 6.6") T/A SHAKER stickers originally: 6.6 LITRE = 403 Oldsmobile T/A 6.6 = 400 Pontiac 1977-'78L78 Pontiac 400 - automatic ONLY L80 Oldsmobile 403 - automatic ONLY W72 Pontiac 400 - automatic & 4-speed (W72 "Performance Package") 1979L80 Oldsmobile 403 - automatic ONLY W72 Pontiac 400 - 4-speed ONLY (W72 "Performance Package")
Last edited by 6bblgt; 06/07/20 07:09 PM.
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